Lysa TerKeurst: Moving On From Broken Trust and Heartbreak | FULL EPISODE | Women of Faith on TBN

Lysa TerKeurst brings her vulnerability to Praise on TBN as she shares her journey of hope in Christ despite personal loss divorce. Join us as we explore the transformative power of faith and God’s love in overcoming life’s challenges. Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more inspiring content!

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And so I just remember putting my ring there and knowing I don’t wanna close this and put it away yet.
Until I can authentically authentically say goodbye without good riddance.
And so I thought of my ex husband, and the original word goodbye, it started off as god be with ye.
That was the original meaning of goodbye.
And then it was shortened to got, um, good, b y e, and then it was shortened to just goodbye.
And, So then I just stood there.
And with sorrow and with new found hope, both, in my heart, and I can carry both.
I, um, I wanted to say goodbye. Goodbye. God be with you. Goodbye.
Here we are in your home.
Thank you so much, first of all, for letting us be here.
Well, thank you for coming over.
You know, I wish that we just had hours and hours to, you know, sit and drink tea.
Do you drink tea in this column? Yes. Yes.
So drink tea, have some cookies, and ketchup on everything, but it’s an honor to have you here, Sheila.
And I wanna thank in particular for let me meet your dog.
My dog. Give me. So you know his real name, his full name is forgiveness.
Well, like, what did he do?
Did he chew your shoes?
No. He was born the same, uh, week that my forgiveness book came out, so forgiving what you can’t forget.
And so then kid said, you should name him forgiveness and call him Giddy for short. So
I love that.
That’s how he got his name.
Okay. So there’s so much that I want to talk to you about, um, because we’ve been friends for years, but I wanna ask you this question.
I wanted to imagine that you are sitting down, not opposite me, you’re sitting down opposite your twenty one year old self.
What would you say to her?
Uh, that’s such a good question.
I would say that there’s gonna be a lot of life that happens, and you’re gonna have a choice to either look at the circumstances and try to determine from the lens of those circumstances if god is faithful or You can keep your eyes on the lord.
And remember, god is good even when he doesn’t feel good.
God is good to you and god is good at being god.
You don’t have to carry the weight of all that you’re gonna face by yourself.
And if you look through that lens that god is good, god is good to me and god is good at being god, then your circumstances will be kept in perspective so much better.
I love that god is good at being god. Yeah. That’s powerful.
Well, I think too many times in my life, I have tried to carry the weight of all that I’m facing, and I work my motions into a tangled tray, and I work my fingers to the bone trying to figure it out or fix it, but You know, some of the most powerful scriptures that have clung to, especially the past 10 years, come from Mark chapter 14, And it’s right when Jesus right before he’s about to go to the cross, and his prayer is so almost brutally honest to the lord.
Where he says my soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.
And when I hear those words, I think about this, Jesus because he was perfect divinity and full humanity.
He was sinless, but he was very much sinned against. So Jesus had access to all the answers.
He knew it all, and yet even having all the answers his soul still cried out.
That he was overwhelmed, Massara, to the point of death.
And so Jesus had the answers, and it didn’t fix his sorrow.
So I could spend my whole life seeking out answers to why this happened and, you know, what good is possibly gonna come from it ever.
I could seek those answers, or I could just simply trust the lord in that moment and just say, lord, you are good.
You are good to me. And you are good at being god.
So therefore, I don’t have to carry that weight.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody express that one particular thing of Jesus had all the answers, but he was still in anguish.
That’s that’s huge.
Well, it was huge for me because I’m I’m a girl that likes to take all the facts and try to figure it out.
And I feel like if I can figure it out, then I can get through it.
But that’s kind of the opposite of faith, you know.
If if if it’s only dependent on what I can see and what I can do and what I can figure out, then that’s not really me stepping into the faith that will really get me through what I’m walking through.
Before we dive into Your new book, which by the way, I love. Fantastic.
Thank you.
Typical lee Lisa. Vulnerable and full, full of hope.
That’s how I always find your books vulnerable and full of hope.
Full of pain, honest, transparent pain, and yet this redemptive suffering.
But before we get to that, I want you to take us back because I don’t think I know that much about your childhood.
What was your family like growing up?
Well, um, my mom had me when she was very young.
She was only nineteen when she got pregnant with me and, um, she got married to 18, got pregnant with me at 19.
And my biological father was shipped off to Korea.
And so my mom and I lived in a single wide trailer with plastic furniture, and still laugh about that to this day.
And, uh, she was my whole world and I was her whole world As a matter of fact, when I was six months old, my mom decided, like, it I I’m not into these cloth diapers in anymore.
So she decided to potty train me and 6 months. 6 months.
I have pictures to prove it because I know that sounds so strange, but, But she did.
And and that was that those were those early years, those really formative years, but it was such a blessing to have a mom that loved me and adored me and treasured me and told me every day what a gift I was to her, um, because that was not the case with my biological father.
He never wanted children, and he made it really clear.
And when he came home, it was he was only home for, you know, just a few short years and and things went really sideways between he and my mom.
My mom was about to leave him, and she found out she was pregnant with my sister.
So we stayed in kind of a environment that was full of turmoil.
And then, um, eventually my mom did leave him and divorce him.
And, um, when my dad left my mom, he left us too.
And at that point, I was probably nine or ten years old, and my mom had to go out and work several jobs just to make ends meet.
And so I have this vivid memory sitting at the kitchen table one morning before she went to work, and she slid this pile of bills over and the checkbook over.
And she said, Lisa, you’re gonna have to figure this out because I can’t. And so then 9
or 10? Mhmm.
Yeah. And so then I had to figure out what bills to pay and what bills to hold and how long we could hold certain things so that our water wouldn’t get cut off and had to balance the checkbook and all of that.
And, you know, I did it and, um, my mom and I again, we worked as a team and we got through those years.
Then in later in middle school, my mom remarried a wonderful man, and he really became a father figure to us.
And Um, and then they started having more children.
And so I had my sister, um, they had my sister Sarah.
She my mom went into labor with my sister Sarah on my 15th birthday. Wow.
And then, um, and then she had my sister Haley um, when I was eighteen, and Haley was just like my baby.
And she was very, very precious to me.
Um, but tragically when I went off to college at 16 months, Haley got really, really sick and passed away.
And it was one of those seasons where I I thought that I could make a deal with god if you’ll just save Haley.
Then I promise you. I will love you. I’ll serve you.
But in my mind, that meant I’ll follow your rules.
And so I felt like I had kept up my end of the bargain, but god did not.
And so I turned my back on god and just said, forget it. I’m not doing life your way.
And so college was full of up and down.
So even when I graduated college, I, um, I just kept trying to seek happiness my own way.
And, um, eventually, I found a guy that, um, said that he loved me and and kinda said all the things that my biological father never did.
And, um, and we were dating, and then I found out I was pregnant.
And my mom was still going through so much grief over losing Haley, um, and I was terrified that just I just felt very lonely and terrified, so I made the really tragic choice to have an abortion.
And that’s really what me to my knees.
And, um, I’ll never forget the emotional pain from that decision sent me into such a spiral.
And, um, then one day I really did just cry out to the lord.
And it just said, I don’t know what I’m saying yes to, but I need you.
And so I say yes to you, lord.
And pretty much my life has been a series of continuing to say yes to god since then.
Who would you say to someone who’s listening in marching and thinking if even if there is a god, I remember it happened with our son, who was 5, and my father-in-law lived with us for a couple of years.
And Christian and I were the only two home the night he died.
And I saw in the days of the past, Christian went from grief to anger.
And I remember asking him about that, and he said, I asked god to save my papa and he didn’t.
So it’s not that I don’t believe there is a god.
I think there might be, but I don’t like him. And I’m not gonna talk to him anymore.
What do you say to somebody who feels like? Because here’s the 2 things.
We believe that god is all powerful. And we believe that god is love.
So if you’re all powerful, don’t let this little one die.
If you’re just love, then you wouldn’t So that means you’re not all powerful. Yeah.
What do you say to that?
First of all, I would say I understand. And I think your feelings are valid.
Of course, we would feel that way. Right?
Um, and then going back to Mark 14 where Jesus is in the garden, right after he praise that his soul was over well masara to the point of death.
Going a little further, he prays this. God, everything is possible for you. Take this from me.
In other words, god, you are capable of anything. So don’t let this be my story.
Don’t let this be the way things go. Um, take it take it away from me.
And I just think, what a gift Jesus gave us that, again, Jesus knew the plan and he knew that it was for good.
He knew everything on this earth was temporary. He knew that it’s eternity that’s gonna be forever.
He knew all of that. And he still said to god, god, everything is possible for you to change the plan.
That’s so mind blowing to me. But just like we see in Hebrews 2, there’s two reasons that Jesus came.
He came to make atonement for our sin, but he also came to be a merciful and fateful high priest.
In other words, he came so that he could feel the weight of humanity, the grit, the grime, and the grief.
Of humanity. And I believe he wants us to really look at what he did next.
So he prays, like, take this for me, change the plan, don’t make this be the way the story goes, just like I’m sure Christian Christian prayed over your, um, father.
And I prayed over so many circumstances in my life.
I don’t want this to be the way my story goes.
But then Jesus utters, these 9 earthshakes hell shattering, demon quaking words, yet not what I will, but what you will, god.
And so often in my morning prayers, I will pray, god, you are good, god, you are good to me, and god, you are good at being god.
And right behind that, I say, after I make all my suggestions, you know, with so many suggestions.
And I honestly think some of my suggestions are really, really good. So you actually are.
But, um, but I do. I I have a moment where I sit with the lord.
And I say, okay. All of that and I’m gonna trade my will for thy will because I’m so confident you will, god.
And I don’t have to see how it’s gonna work out.
And I don’t have to know all of the answers I I’m sure with all of your heart, you still wish that your dad wouldn’t have passed away.
I still wish with all of my heart the past 10 years of my life wouldn’t have gone the direction that it went.
Um, and yet, I do know that god is trustworthy.
And In the physical realm of all the pain that we see, that is absolutely true.
We are experiencing real pain. But at the same time, with god, there’s always a meanwhile.
Meanwhile, this is all true, and what god is working out for good is also true, and those 2 are operating at the same time.
I love that you brought up the Mark 14 passage because for me, how it’s helped me is I, I think Jesus processed his pain in the presence of his father.
Because sometimes, you know, when we’re going through tough stuff, We’re either trying to fix it ourselves, or we’re trying to shove it down into the cellar of our souls, or we’re trying a 1,000,000 in one things.
But the fact that Jesus actually processed that agony Yes. Open handed in the presence of his father.
And I think when we do that, when we tell the truth, we make space for grace, because that’s one of the things that I have seen throughout your life as long as I’ve known you.
I mean, the tragedy of a little one, one that you’ve considered almost like this is my little girl, then, the tragedy of the abortion, which I’m sure broke your heart into a million pieces.
Now, so that was the end.
If we could just write a book now and say, and then Lisa looked happily ever after, but that’s not been true.
You’ve gone through so much heartache.
When you graduated from college, what did you how did you imagine your life?
What did you think you would be doing?
Well, I thought I would married the guy that I dated in college.
Um, and I thought that we would have these children that I had imagined, you know, I think I think the hard thing about a woman is we don’t just look forward to the future.
We make plans as if the future is already real.
So I had already named my kids, you know, that I would have with them.
I already imagined our home, everything, And then when that relationship fell apart, I not only grieved the loss of the relationship, but I grieved the children that I would never have, and I grieved the vision of what I thought my life would look like.
Um, so yeah, I think coming out of that then, I just thought now what?
Like, what do I do now? And so then I decided, okay, well, maybe I’ll just be a career woman.
So I jumped right into a career and, um, and that was wonderful until also that was not wonderful.
And I think I look back now and I see that I was very attached to outcomes of my own making.
I I kind of have this checklist thing. Like, I know what will make me happy.
It’s to get married, have kids, have you know, the cute little house with the minivan parked up front, maybe not the minivan, but that was part of the dream.
And then, um, you know, and then, uh, an amazing career, And I think what I quickly realized is when we attach our hope to outcomes of our own making, we’re setting ourselves up to possibly get epically disappointed because really there’s nothing in this world that we can attach our hope to and have it be permanently wonderful.
There’s 1000 and 1000 and 1000 of women, not just here in the States, but around the world who are profoundly grateful for the ministry that you head up.
Proverbs 31. How did you go from, I’m gonna be a career woman to suddenly Proverse 31 woman.
That seems like quite
a leap. It it was quite a leap because, um, I eventually did get married and then right away got pregnant and had a little baby.
And, uh, now all of a sudden I was a stay at home mom, and that was amazing, except I still did have this drive inside of me to do something.
And so I was trying everything. I remember I went and took some glasses to learn how to arrange flowers.
And I thought, great. I’ll open up my own floral shop, and that didn’t work. And then I thought, okay.
Now I’m gonna sell cooking utensils. So I sold cooking utensils.
But in one of the demonstrations I was doing, I was telling them how safe the slicer Diser was, and I cut off the end of one of my fingers.
And so I was like, yeah. This Sales
is limited in that company.
So it’s probably not supposed to be my career.
But then one day, um, a gal approached me and said she was starting a little newsletter to encourage other state home moms, and she wanna know if I would help her.
And I said, yes, I’ll do the marketing, but I don’t ever wanna say anything upfront.
I don’t I don’t ever wanna, you know, be upfront in any way. I’ll just work behind the scenes.
And so that’s how it started.
It was just this little newsletter that people really friends and family would send us $15 a year, and they would get 12 newsletters over that year.
And that’s how the whole thing started.
And then exploded clearly. Yeah. Um, I did a survey recently.
I asked our team at TBN, would you give me a list of why people call in for prayer.
I I wanted to know, like, what are the, particularly the last 2 or 3 years, which have just been so bizarre So so many people are lonely devastated, but I wanted to know what do people call in for prayer about?
And I found out that the a vast majority of the people are calling in because they’re having marital problems.
And I think the COVID epidemic exacerbated that because suddenly people were home together a lot with Nick’s work.
I mean, Barry and I have been married for 28 years, and I almost killed him during COVID, which I still think might have been technically legal during COVID because he wakes up talking.
I mean, he just talks, and I like quiet in the morning.
All of that to say, when did you always have this idea of how life is going to be?
When did you begin to think things were not going well in your marriage.
It was in 2013. And, you know, at first, I I could pin it to other things.
You know, we had 5 children, and so that’s a very busy household.
And some of our kids were, you know, graduating, going off to college.
Um, and so I just, at first, attribute said there’s lots of transition happening and, you know, sometimes it’s hard.
And then, you know, um, my ex husband was experiencing, you know, a birthday, a significant birthday.
And so I thought, well, maybe it’s just that he’s kinda hit that play where he’s feeling like he’s getting, you know, older than he would like to be or whatever.
So I always had things that I could attribute what I was feeling and sensing too that were a whole lot less severe than what was actually happening.
And I didn’t find out for sure what was happening. I got through 2013, 2014, 2015.
Um, but knew just there was something on it was like an undercurrent of of turmoil that um, that I wasn’t used to and that made me very, very, very anxious.
And at the same time, I think he was trying to me that I was the crazy one.
And so every time I would ask questions, you know, he would just say things like, you know, Lisa, we really need to like, work on your mental health and stuff.
And so I now know that the counseling term for that is gaslighting. I didn’t know it then.
And, um, they in early 2016, the day of my oldest daughter’s rehearsal dinner, um, I’ve found out for sure that he was having in a finger.
I really do think that my body just went into shut down mode.
I knew I had to get through the wedding for my water.
And so I did, but I was in a complete fog.
I was smiling on the outside, well, then I was screaming on the inside, just desperate to wake up and have this all be a bad dream, but it wasn’t.
It was real.
Not only that, but it wasn’t something he was willing to walk away from.
Where is god in all I because I’m thinking people who are thinking right now, yeah, that that is that is my story.
We’re we’re is god when things when he’s not answering your prayers in a way that makes sense?
Well, it’s a lot easier for me to answer that question now.
If you would have interviewed me that day, I would have said I have no idea where god is, you know, and I I think it’s okay to be honest and that terrified and, and that broken.
But here’s what I know to be absolutely true.
We don’t serve a do nothing God is always doing something, and that something is always pointed in the direction of good.
And I could not see the good in that season, it was impossible for me to see the good in that season.
But what I could do is trace god’s hand of faithfulness behind me.
And I could remember other circumstances where god was good.
Circumstances, I know how it was gonna get out of.
And so that didn’t fully comfort me, but it did remind me that I may not see the hand of god moving in the way that I think it should, but that doesn’t mean god isn’t moving.
It just may mean he’s doing something different.
And what I was so desperate for was for god’s hand to move in a direction of complete reconciliation between me and my husband.
Um, but instead, god god’s hand was moving, but it became a rescue, and he rescued me out.
And I do think sometimes god rescues us out of relationships, sometimes god, you know, creates a reconciliation opportunity, but for that reconciliation to take place, both people have to work toward reconciliation has to be repentance.
There has to be a complete turnaround.
The the behavior that that got into, you know, you into that brokenness cannot be the behavior that will get you out of it.
You know? And I remember the day that I got the divorce papers from my attorney.
And I didn’t know what emotion to have at that point. Shoot.
You know, it’s like, do I cry?
Do I thank god for rest giving me out, do I grieve the loss of a nearly 30 year marriage?
And the answer is yes, all of the above.
I’ve often wondered because I know what the Christian community can be like.
You know, we can be incredibly supportive and understanding, and we can be brutal with one another.
I remember, um, posting a comment on Instagram one day, a fairly insipid comment simply saying that It was the day when Joe Biden’s son Beau finally passed from his cancer and being a mom of just one boy, it broke my heart.
And all I posted was praying today for the Biden family.
I got annihilated online by believers saying, you know, This is how can you pray for a man like that?
And I’m like, it kind of blew my mind, but I’ve often wanted for you.
You know, we have these things within the church where these are the These are the regular sins that we all do, um, and these are the big no no’s.
Right. So how did you navigate those waters of people who hold you in such high esteem believing that you shouldn’t have got divorced?
Well, it wasn’t easy, you know.
I mean, I was already suffering so much heartbreak on my own, and then To add on top of that, you know, people well meaning people, but people putting pressure on me, Lisa, if you get a divorce, you’re basically giving permission to a whole generation of women to also divorce their husbands.
And I just thought, well, 1st of all, I’m not that powerful.
2nd of all, I’m absolutely not giving permission to anyone.
And third of all, I am just trying to survive a story that I didn’t want.
I didn’t want this divorce. I I didn’t see it coming, and there was nothing that I could do to change him.
If I had power to change another person, I would’ve.
But all I had to do was, you know, all I could do was to save myself.
And, um, and save my sanity.
And and, you know, I did a lot of research around what helps kids be resilient after something as tragic as a a divorce.
And the research shows that the number one thing that can help a child be resilient past an a divorce, especially an unwanted divorce like mine was, is to have one healthy, stable parent.
And if I wanted to be healthy and I wanted to be stable, then I could no longer participate in the dysfunction that was gonna take both of us out if I didn’t get out.
You mentioned we had 5 children, and 2 are adopted Am I correct in that to, yeah, darling boys are adopted?
How do you help your children?
In that process, because I think it’s something that it’s the same as, you know, you know, my story, my stories to do more with mental illness, which doesn’t just impact me.
It impacts our family. It impacts my husband. It impacts our son.
And I I was trying to think What would that have been like for you in the midst of your own overwhelming grief?
Because what people probably don’t understand is the years that you tried the year after year of extended grace and forgiveness.
How do you help your children? What do you say to them when they don’t understand?
I think when the trauma is not just one trauma, but it’s over and over and over and it’s it’s this trauma and then that trauma and then this one.
And my kids were of the age where it’s not like I could I could sort of hide some of the impact of all of this from them.
Um, and so, unfortunately, they were knee deep in the trauma with me not because I pulled them in there, but because they were very aware of what what was going on.
And so I don’t know that I did it all right, but I can tell you couple of things that I did write.
And one is I made a commitment to my kids that if they had questions, I would answer them truthfully.
But I also made a commitment to them that I wouldn’t continue to talk about things beyond what their needed.
And they even asked me as a very healthy boundary.
They said, please don’t talk about our dad unless we ask you questions.
And, you know, I think part of that is I could get a divorce, but they were not in that situation, you know, that they can’t divorce their dad.
And so I respected that boundary, and I think that was a really good, healthy thing.
So I don’t know that I did it alright.
But I would say those conversations were important, um, and also getting good counseling and making that available to my kids so that they didn’t always feel like they had to process it amongst themselves or process it with me, that they could go in a neutral environment and someone who was trained with with how to heal from trauma.
Giving them access to that was really important too.
How did you deal with the anger?
Because I was trying, which is possible, to put myself in your place.
Knowing some of the behind the, you know, story details of how awful it was at times.
What do you what do you do with that?
Or were you angry, or were you more grief stricken, but how do you handle that?
I think I was shocked um, that was my primary motion.
And I remember going into my counselor, and I kept saying, I just can’t believe this.
And then I next week, I just can’t believe this. And then the next week, I just can’t believe it.
And finally, my counselor says, really? You can’t believe it?
Because pretty much this has been a pattern now where I think you should believe it.
And he helped ease me to the place where I understood mental health is commitment to reality at all costs.
And so part of my struggle was I wanted to, and I needed to feel all the feelings, for sure.
But I also knew that while those feelings could indicate things that I needed to address.
I didn’t want them to dictate how I suddenly lived my life, and so I could feel angry.
And boy did I feel angry sometimes? But I didn’t have to live as an angry person.
Easier said than done, obviously.
And I, I would give myself lots and lots of grace for certain moments that it was just a flood of emotion, and that was it.
But I also knew from from almost the very beginning of this, that it was not gonna be something I could get over.
It was something that I was gonna have to walk through.
Yeah.
And there were not gonna be any shortcuts And, um, you know, I’m thankful that I have wise people around me to give me some really crucial nudge of advice that were very, very important.
And one was my counselor, his name is Jim Crest. He’s amazing.
But he, one time, said, Lisa, a sign of true, true healing is that you can go home and sit in the quiet alone with your own thoughts.
And be okay. And I really did not like that answer because I thought that’s the last thing I wanna do is go home and sit with my thoughts, but it was absolutely important because it allowed me space to identify what I was really feeling and those feelings became pointers of the healing that needed to take place.
And so those feelings were like the indicator lights on a dash board.
And I had to be committed that what I was walking through, this really was as bad as what I thought it was, and these feelings were real.
And and I didn’t want to get swept away with the feelings, but I definitely wanted to pay it attention to them, because we have to feel the pain if we’re ever going to be able to deal with the pain, and we have to deal with the pain if we’re ever gonna heal from the pain.
And so from that place, one of the phrases that I always think of when think of you and your journey is, I believe, that you have, and honestly, brings tears to my eye, that you have stewarded your suffering.
Well, there’s a difference between walking through suffering, and stewarding your suffering.
You have allowed the lord to take the very things that have broken you.
And you have lifted them up.
And you have allowed god’s love to flow through these broken places to other women.
And for that, um, on behalf of everyone. Thank you.
So now we have this new book and it’s called Good Boundaries.
And goodbyes, loving others without losing the best of who you are.
First of all, would you just help us understand how do you define what is a boundary?
Well, thank you for your sweet word. Too, Sheila. I, um, I appreciate you saying that.
That has been my prayer to steward well.
And honestly, this book is part of because a boundary, I think sometimes we think of boundaries as an attempt to shove an person away, or to control another person who seems a little bit out of control, or to fix an issue that we we know needs to be fixed, but we can’t figure out exactly how to communicate it.
And so it’s just okay, well, then let me just create a separation with this person so I don’t really have to deal with what’s the real issue here.
That’s not a boundary of foundry is a wonderful communication tool for us to establish what is and is not okay in that relationship.
What we do and what we do not have to give in that relationship, and what we can and cannot tolerate in that relationship, not obviously, we need to check ourselves because sometimes we can just be selfish, you know, and, like, I don’t have that to give.
You know? Well, that’s great. It’s Christmas morning, and there’s solid dishes.
I’m sorry that you don’t have that to give, but we all need to participate. Right?
Uh, may or may not have been a boundary that one of my children tried to draw with me.
But, um, I think the boundary is this opportunity for us to communicate, so we avoid extremes.
The extreme over here is that somebody’s doing something, and it’s creating a lot of wear and hair in the relationship.
It’s making me feel worn down and worn out.
And so over here, I take it, and I take it, and I take it, and take it, and take it.
Until one day, I jumped to the other extreme and say, I just can’t take it anymore. I’m done.
So a boundary helps us bring things back to the middle and avoid extremes where we learn how to communicate effectively, like I said, what isn’t is not acceptable what we do and do not have to give.
And when we do it and we do it in healthy ways, the boundary action should be a way that can fight for our relationships to stay healthy.
I can imagine a lot of Christian women.
In fact, when I spent a month in a psych hospital, I talked to some women like this who believed one woman had been so severely physically abused by her husband.
He’d broken her jaw. He’d broken her leg.
I mean, she’d been through so much, but she believed if she drew a boundary, you know, and stepped away even for a time, that that was not the thing to do.
Why do you think we get so confused as believers?
Because you say in your book, boundaries are not not our, our idea. Boundaries are god’s idea.
Well, one scripture I like to point out that there’s many scriptures that I think can kind of feed notion of like, oh, is it okay to draw a boundary, but one of them is where Jesus teaches us and models that we ought to lay down our life for our friends.
Right? And Jesus did do that. He did lay down his life for other people, for all of us.
But Jesus laid down his one life to accomplish a high and holy purpose, Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.
And so I think we must not confuse the good command to love with the bad behavior of enabling choices that really are not gonna benefit either one of you.
You know, I, I think sometimes we can get caught in this dysfunctional dance where we get afraid, if I draw a boundary, then this person is gonna take something from me that I don’t want them to boundary, they’re gonna reject me, or they’re gonna be epically disappointed in me, or they’re gonna walk away from me.
Well, the thing is if by drawing a healthy boundary, if that’s the kind of person that would have the reaction to reject you, walk away from you, just be disappointed in you, then chances are they’re gonna be those things, whether you draw the boundary or not.
So our job isn’t to control them.
Our job is to keep ourselves self controlled and stable, insane in the process.
God never called us to control other people, but the evidence, one fruit of the the evidence of god’s spirit in us is self control.
And so I think it’s important that we understand we draw the boundaries that we can remain in control despite how out of control another person gets.
Are boundaries appropriate, um, in families with, like, say with your children, you know, um, some of the comments I got recently when I asked a question, what’s the hardest thing you’re dealing with now, and how can Barry and I pray for you was, you know, my kids are totally out of control.
You know, I’ve raised them to go to church. They don’t care anymore.
How do you apply good boundaries with children?
Well, we have to always think about age appropriateness, and we do have responsibility as a parent.
It’s not like, okay. I’m gonna draw this boundary.
And so because you refuse to clean your dishes at night, I’m no longer gonna provide food for you.
You know, I mean, that’s probably not gonna work because you do have the responsibility to care well for your children.
But I do think that age appropriately letting your children suffer the consequences of their choices is so much better than you stepping in and saying don’t do this, but then rescuing them from the consequences of that choice, because if they never feel the consequences of their own choices, then they’re not going to have the appropriate self motivation to change their behavior.
You know, I like to think of it like this.
Like if you and I were here today and one of us had a cardiac event, the other one surely would jump in and do CPR.
And using external pressure, I could sustain your life for a little while. Right?
But at some point, if your heart does not beat and quicken and and just start to pump on its own, I can’t permanently sustain your life using external pressure trying to get your heart to change.
You’re gonna be super frustrated if you just try to put a boundary on them to force them to change.
What we have to do is change our mindset.
We put a boundary on our self so that we reduce the access that we grant that person to our limited areas of capacity I’m not supposed to control another person, but I am responsible to control me.
Wow. I wrote down a quote, and I I wanna make sure I get it right.
Um, yeah, I love this, and this is what you were kinda touching on.
You say love can be unconditional, but relational access never should be.
What what what does that mean?
Well, again, when I was reading through the Bible, I asking the question, is god okay with boundaries, which by the way, god established the foundations of the world in Genesis 1 by separating.
In other words, creating boundaries between light and darkness dry land in the water, right?
Then we get into Genesis 2 of the topics that god could have chosen to be the subject matter of the first conversation recorded between god and man, god chose the topic of a boundary.
And he said, you’re free to eat from all these trees in the garden, but you must not eat from this one tree or else you will die.
And so by the time I, I kept studying, is god okay with boundaries?
By the time I got to the way that god establishes the temple, god gives certain people certain access in the temple, but not all people all access.
And it wasn’t because he loved this group of people, more than this group of people.
It’s that he required different levels of responsibility. Wow.
And so the more access you were granted, the more responsibility that you had to demonstrate to have that kind of access.
The greatest access was given to the high priest once a year to go into the Holy Leaf Holidays, but that high level of access required a very high level of responsibility, or else the priest, if he wasn’t perfectly cleansed and and had on the right and all the stuff, then he would drop dead.
He would suffer the greatest consequence. And so those two words really grab my attention, access, and responsibility.
Here’s where I was getting it wrong.
I was giving level 10 access to people with out requiring level 10 responsibility.
Now when I say access, financial capacity, relational capacity, energy capacity, right?
So I’ve got I’ve got limited areas of capacity, not because I’m selfish, but because I’m human, only god has unlimited capacity.
Yeah. And when we try act like we have unlimited capacity.
We’re actually trying to act like we’re god, and we’re not.
And so we’re already doing this really well in some areas of our life.
Like, we know if we give level 10 access to people by handing out our financial information, you know, like today, if I said, Sheila, what’s your bank account number and what’s your pass code?
You would always say back to me, I’m not sharing that. Right? Probably. Yes. Why? Is it because you’re unchristian?
No. No. It’s because what, you have limited finances in your bank account.
So you cannot give level 10 access to your bank unless you make sure people demonstrate level 10 responsibility to have that kind of access.
So here’s where I was getting it wrong.
I was giving level 10 access, they were only bringing level 3 responsibility.
I can have a conversation asking them to be more responsible, but if they are unwilling or in capable, trying to force them to be more responsible with the external pressure of putting a boundary on them.
It’s not gonna work. So put the boundary on myself and I reduce the access I grant them down to level 3, which is their demonstrated level of responsibility.
Wow.
What do you to somebody who’s listening in and, I mean, I remember the first time I read Henry Cloud’s book, um, changes that heal, it was like these bells were going off inside of me, like, you know, warning red flags.
What would you say to somebody who’s gonna read, um, goodbye and good buys to even know where to start, because it’s kind of scary if you’ve never lived that way.
It is. Well, first while I would say I have a lot of scripts in the book.
And these aren’t just hard and horrific things. You know, these gonna really help save your sanity.
So one example is we all get requests, and we see this request come up, and we think, oh, inside my heart inside my gut, I know I should say no, but then suddenly my mouth says yes.
Or suddenly I type yes, of course. You know?
And so that a good way to practice boundaries when you fish.
So if you’re being selfish, then, yeah, maybe adjust.
But if it’s because you’re being honest about your limitations, here’s a simple script.
While my heart says yes, yes, yes, the reality of my time makes this a no. Thank you for understanding.
Excellent, and I will be using that a lot in the future.
Just don’t use it on me.
Right? Never on you. Never, never, never.
But, but really think of the number of people who end up doing things and actually really resenting it because the answer should have been no.
But they felt this person will like me more if I say yes.
And usually, it doesn’t end up that way. They don’t like you more.
They just got, you know, what they needed from you.
Right. Or we say yes because, again, we may be concerned.
What will this person take from me if I say no.
And whatever it is that we’re getting from them, maybe it’s support. Maybe it’s being liked by them.
Maybe it’s, you know, accolades or attaboys or whatever, you know, opportunity.
So us saying no to that person I think sometimes makes us afraid they’re gonna take from us, whatever they’re giving to us, that we feel we have to have.
And so here’s the way that I would I would think about it, is it possible that too many of us are desperately wanting from other people things that we really should be getting from the lord.
Like, I think I will always desperately want things from other people in those exact areas that I fear god will not provide for me.
And so then it’s hard for me to say no. Because then I lose control of that situation. Right?
And I I think the other part of this that we have to think about is just take a step back from it all.
And if I were to say, okay, Sheila, pull out your journal today.
And on one side, right, this is who Sheila is when she’s at her best.
When she’s balanced, she’s got enough sleep, you know, she’s she’s really paid attention to her limited capacity and she’s not hyper extending or bankrupting her capacity.
So what does Sheila look like? She’s amazingly kind. She is generous. She’s loving.
She’s interested in other people. So you would list all these great qualities because you have so many.
But then I would challenge you, okay, Sheila, on the other side of the page, Write down what Sheila looks like when she’s worn out worn down frazzled or fractured.
Ask my husband.
But you know
I know what you’re saying. Yeah.
These 2 different versions of ourselves now ask the question, who Which version of myself do I want to be front and center in my life?
Version of myself.
Therefore, I’m responsible to make sure that I don’t get into a position where I’m giving so much or sacrificing so much that I get bitter and resentful and angry and withdrawn or whatever qualities are that are the worst versions of ourselves.
That’s what it means to draw a boundary, not to shove other people away, but it’s so that we can love others well, which out losing the best of who we are.
Uh, I love that. That is so helpful. So let’s just get to the other bit.
Good boundaries and good buys. When do we know it’s time to say goodbye to something or someone in our life?
Well, I always say take steps, not leaps.
Yeah. I love you said that.
You know? Obviously, if you’re in physical danger, then you need to get away right away.
But if it’s a scenario where it’s a process to get to this goodbye, just take steps.
And one appropriate step is to get a board of directors around you.
And that doesn’t mean that you have to have an organization.
I have a personal board of and these are people in my life that can speak truth to me.
They can walk beside me. They know the depth of the struggles that I’ve been through.
And they can help me think biblically.
And I can borrow some of their wisdom when I feel like I’m shaky in my own, or I can borrow some of their faith when I feel like my faith is really getting worn down right now or whatever it is.
But these people, and it doesn’t have to be ten people.
Could be just a few people, but it includes a friend of mine who knows the Bible inside and out and who can help me dig into scriptures and find the answers that I And then it also includes my therapist, Jim Crest.
It’s really, really important.
His wisdom throughout the book is incredible.
Yes. I thought that was gonna be absolutely crucial to have that.
And then 2 dear friends that walk, they do life with me every day. I cannot hide from them.
They are aware of me, what I’m doing, what I’m thinking, what I’m going through from the morning, early in the morning to late at night, we all have each other.
We track other, you know, so we all have our locations and everything. So these are, like, dear, dear friends.
And so this group of people really help me when I have to make the harder decisions.
And, um, you know, that’s one reason I started therapy and theology, the podcasts that we do.
Is because maybe you don’t have access to a friend who can give you Bible answers to some of your deep questions, or maybe you don’t have a therapist yet.
Well, the podcast that I started with a theologian and my own therapist helps provide that for people until they can possibly find a therapist on their own.
How do people find that podcast us. Is that simply what
it’s called? Yep. It’s called Therapy And Theology with Lisa Turker. So anywhere podcasts are, you can find it.
Oh, I love that. Because honestly, I I so agree with that.
I have 3 women in my life that I call my safe sisters.
And it was really lifesaving during when the 1st year of COVID, you know, at first, I actually thought it was great because I stayed in my pajamas all day and watched the Great British Baking show, you know, until we started to watch that too.
Oh my gosh. But then I found myself spiraling again with depression.
And We have this thing that we we get on these Zoom calls with each other because the I’ve tried to move it to phone calls so that I don’t have to care what my face like, and they’re like, nope.
Get on the Zoom call. We wanna look in your eyes.
And there were several times during those months when I’d be know, what girls I’m not joining today, and they were like, Sheila sit down in the chair and hit this button now.
Mhmm.
And really, it’s And part of it was them reminding me of what’s always true Mhmm.
No matter no matter what might be true for a moment. Mhmm.
So I cannot, I mean, I cannot end what you said more highly, it’s so important because the enemy looks for who he can devour.
I remember when I was in Africa watching these and beautiful gazelles and Impala, and they would be just racing together as a team.
And then one evening when we’re coming back from something, there’s one by it self, which is something I’ve never seen.
And we stopped the jeep, and I asked the guy who was our, um, guide, why is that why is he standing all by himself, why is he not moving?
And he said, you need to look over in that bush, and I look over, and and there’s a lion.
And within seconds, that darling little animal was taken out.
And the irony is that animal that, um, Gazelle can run faster than the lion, but it was frozen in fear.
And I think that’s what happens to a lot of us as believers because we don’t, because we’re not part of community because we don’t have I read a thing this morning on Instagram from Lisa Whittle, where she said, um, your can love everyone, but not everyone can get in your car.
You know, we need to have those few people, you know, a few girls, a few safe sisters, safe others who know as well enough to ask how we’re doing and know when we’re not telling the truth.
But I wanted to ask you, you know, I know how much time and energy you put into writing.
You’ve helped me writing my books. You’ve helped so many other people. It’s very intentional with you.
So when you finished this book, how did that feel for you?
Um, well, it felt like closing a part of my life that I I want it to close.
I was ready for it to close.
You know, the book ends with that moment where I’m standing in my closet and looking at my wedding ring.
And I just kept thinking I don’t know what to do with my wedding I didn’t wanna take it off.
And yet, it was time. And so a few weeks before that, I’d been given um, a friend of mine from college had found an old box of books that she was going through from college.
I hadn’t seen her in 30 years. And she found my childhood Bible.
I have no idea how my childhood Bible got put in a box of her college books, but somehow she had it.
And she she figured out a way to give it to this person, who gave it to this person, who eventually it, it made its way to me.
And it was to open it up and read things written in my childhood handwriting.
But some of those statements that I’d written as a child were so profound that it was almost like I was back then writing messages to myself today.
And one of the things I had written in my little girl handwriting was, um, god would never want you to be married to a husband who loves more than you, more women than you.
And god doesn’t want your heart to be divided toward him either.
And so, had it open to that page.
And, um, so I took my wedding ring, and I tucked it in the pages of that childhood Bible.
And I closed it, and I put it high on the shelf in my closet.
And I thought these are this is just really, like, 2 ins of my life, one, a little girl who had so many hopes and dreams for what her life would look like.
And then now my fifty year old self, and life doesn’t look at all like I thought it would.
But there parts of my life look so much better than I would have ever envisioned.
And there are parts that, you know, are part of my store but it’s not my whole story.
And then there’s still a lot of life to look forward to.
And so I just remember putting my there and knowing I don’t wanna close this and put it away yet until I can authentically authentically say goodbye.
Without good riddance. And so I thought of my ex husband, and the original word goodbye, it started off as god be with That was the original meaning of goodbye.
And then it was shortened to got, um, good, be y e, and then it was shortened to just goodbye.
And, um, so then I just stood there and with sorrow and with newfound hope, both in my heart, and I can carry both.
I, um, I wanted to say goodbye. Goodbye. God be with you. Goodbye.
That is profound. Wanna ask you, would you pray for our viewers for people who are leanings closer to the television set because everything you’re sharing is touching them deeply.
Um, well, let me speak first to our listeners.
I wanna say, I would imagine in whatever you’re walking through today, whether your circumstances are like mine or not, Um, the sorrow, the undercurrent of sorrow, is the same.
And I know what it feels like.
I know what it feels like to wake up and want to feel the joy of the morning, but feel the dread of the day.
I know what it feels like to look at your life and think, you know, I have hope for my future, but today feels so scary.
I just don’t know how to get through today. I know what that feels like.
And I, I just wanna remind you you’re not alone and that there are more people and more resources out there to help you, then you’ve got problems.
So don’t sit alone. Don’t get in isolation like you were saying. Sheila.
And just remember that that there are others out there, and there are resources that can help you so take advantage of that.
Um, alright. Let me pray. Lord, I just pray right now for the woman that is listening or for the man that is listening.
Who feels as though all hope has been lost.
I pray that you would give them a glimpse today of just one evidence of your goodness and your faithfulness.
Maybe it’s just the warmth of the sun on their face, or maybe it’s an expected smile from a stranger, or maybe lord, it’s running into someone who says something profound to us that we weren’t expecting, Whatever it is, lord, I pray that we would become, even in the middle of our czar, that we would become a noticer of your goodness and your faithfulness because When we notice your goodness and we notice your faithfulness, we are reminded that you are right here with us.
So, lord, give us that. And that can be the joy and the hope that we hold on to for today.
As long as we know you’re with us, and we are not alone, And when you are with us, lord, good is there as well.
In your holy name, we pray, Amen.
There’s a sparkle back in your eye. Joy looks good on you.
Thank you.
You wear it well.
Thank you.