Questions, Doubts, & Answers About Faith w/Christine Caine | Joyce Meyer’s Talk It Out | Episode 133

What do you do when something causes your faith to be shaken to the core? Christine Caine joins Joyce, Ginger, and Erin, and they talk through how you can process your questions, doubts, hurts, and fears in an effective, authentic way that will bring you closer to Jesus on the other side.

Real life, real friends, no pretense… welcome to Talk It Out! Join Joyce Meyer, Ginger Stache, Erin Cluley, and their guests, as they talk out the stuff of everyday faith. It’s as real as it gets.

Watch/Listen to new episodes every other Tuesday!

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Joyce Meyer, one of the world’s leading practical Bible teachers and New York Times best-selling author, shares encouragement and advice to help us enjoy our daily lives.

With a heart to share Christ and love people, Joyce’s messages help people in all walks of life to grow in their faith, learn to study the Bible, find healing from the wounds of life, get answers to life’s questions and encounter the love of God in a powerful way.

I still think if you truly go back to the word and to Jesus, you’ll discover he actually never let you down.
Yep.
It’s it’s it’s maybe the system or people let you down.
And so sometimes if the house of cards falls, There’s actually a good side to that because it’ll lead you to the real Jesus.
Hi, friends. Welcome to the top get out podcasts.
We have a treat for you today. We not only have, of course, our friend, Joyce Meyer.
And Erin Clearly, but we also have Christine Cain with us. Wow. Yes, we do.
We’re gonna be happy. We’re so much fun. I’m pumped
to be here.
You always are.
We love that a baby’s hand.
I’m loving this couch. Thank you.
Beautiful. This is our cozy pink couch. You’d
have in your house.
You know, the bright pink is you should see my wardrobe job. Yeah. Full of pink.
I bet. Yeah.
I miss all those outfits. I would
No. Your wardrobe’s not full of anything.
That was me. First time
I saw her clothes that I said I mean, she had, like, 10 pieces of clothes in there.
It took pair of shoes. I’m like, Where’s your clothes? She said, this is it.
I’m like, couldn’t believe it. And I think it was all black. All black. Public.
It’s easy when you’re traveling.
And Nick doesn’t have much more than she does.
Well Oh, when you’re on the road as much as you guys are, But you guys you guys went out and played a little bit yesterday.
Right? You had you had No. We had lunch.
You had some girl time, but I was gonna say, so you probably didn’t go shopping. No.
No. We had lunch.
But Joyce Joyce will you buy me awesome black clothes now?
I do. You can just
sit down. I can’t
I just get black. So
Yeah. Well, today on the podcast, and I’m so glad everyone’s here with us because I know this is something that that all of us at one time or another in our life deal with.
And that is just questions about our faith.
Yeah.
It’s it’s those big questions that might come up at certain times in your life.
Um, and and especially if you’ve either not been raised in the faith.
And so really have no idea what god is.
And so we get to crisis points or we get to need points in our life.
And we start asking those questions, you know, where where’s my fulfillment? Where’s what I need in life?
The other side, you can flip that coin, and it’s those of us who have been raised in the church.
Yeah.
And kind of could be caught in our parents’ faith and not understanding why we have our own.
And so then asking those questions. God, you know, I I need to know for me who you are.
So we’re talking about, is it okay?
First of all, to ask the big questions to is god big enough to handle?
I think it’s healthy. I think it’s very healthy. I remember one of my daughters going through that.
And she said, I have to find out if I believe what I believe because I believe it or if I just believe it because you taught it to me all my life.
And, I don’t think I think everybody needs their own faith.
You know, you can’t you can’t make it on grandma’s faith or mama’s faith because If that’s all you have, when you have a crisis in your life, you will fall apart entirely.
Was she nervous to tell you that? Because I just wonder if if your mom, her profession is No.
Because we
were kinda going through something anyway. There was something that happened. I forget. Sure. She just didn’t agree with it.
And it kinda provoked her then to have to find out what she really believed.
And it was it was a healthy thing for her, and I think that everybody needs.
Molly, you need
to know Totally. I’m just thinking with my younger she’s about to go to college and the particular college she wants to go to, it’s it’s a very, very good school, but it also, um, is a very kind of liberal school.
And so and I I said to her, I said, I’m with you, Sophie, um, but, you know, I said, I’ll I’ll have to tell you, I’ve got great concerns because you know, inherent in the school system in this are values that are very contrary to everything.
Um, we’ve raised her. She goes, mom, you know, I’ve grown up in this house, um, and I have my faith.
And if my faith cannot, um, withstand the sort of, you know, secular ideology.
She goes, well, then is it really true anyway? And I said, you know what?
I I go, so that’s fine because I’ve given the Bible tells me to train you up in the way you should go.
So I’ve done that. And I said, and god is not nervous.
He’s not like, about to fall off his throne wondering whether he’s gonna pass the test of truth. Yeah. Right.
Yeah. I said that’s I I go, I am so confident.
In god and his word and his truth that you can ask him anything you want and you’re you’re about to be exposed to a lot of uh, contrary thinking to biblical thinking.
I said, but you’re gonna find that, you know, god’s always prevailed through all of that, but but let me just say having said that, my prayer life has also gone to another level.
Yes. It is. Yeah.
I think when people are searching to know what they believe. Just just thinking about your daughter.
She’s gonna have a lot of stuff thrown at her head. Mhmm.
That may make sense to her head that doesn’t agree with the Bible, but it makes sense in her head.
Mhmm. And I I just wanna caution people to always go back to what is really in my heart. Beautiful.
You know, what’s yeah. Because you’re you’re, you know, the Bible says that the mind of the flesh in Romans 86, it says the mind of the flesh in the amplified Bible is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit.
Vega. I love that. That’s beautiful. But the mind of the spirit is life and soul peace.
Both now and forever. So
Yeah.
Does what you believe give you peace?
You know, or is it just a bunch of sense and reason?
Yeah.
Without the holy spirit involved it.
So important because there is that aspect where, like, I like to make things be logical and make sense.
And that’s not really, you think about it.
That’s not even the way the world It is not a logical place that we live in right now.
So what is my heart saying? And and building not taking your brain out of it.
Of course, god wants us to think, but building our faith on what we know deep down right here and not building it on history of what somebody else has told us or even emotion.
If if I don’t feel it right now, does it not count? Yeah.
So one of the big questions here is is the doubt that comes up when something doesn’t go the way that we think it should.
So we’re gonna begin with Joyce teaching a lit a little bit answering that question of doubt.
And what do we do with that doubt?
And is it okay to ask the questions, and then we’ll be back with more.
I think a lot of times, even when it comes to trust in god, we may feel upset and anxious and worries attacking our mind.
But if you really ask yourself, okay. Now what what do I really believe?
Do I really believe that God is gonna leave me stranded in this situation and that he’s not gonna come through for me?
What do I really believe? And the bottom line is that if you’ve had any experience with god at all, you’ll have to say, he’ll come through.
God will come through.
So in teaching you how to deal with that, I wanna just make sure it’s clear up front that I’m not telling you that you’re never gonna have doubts.
Matter of fact, I think it’s better to just be honest with god about them.
I like the guy whose son was demon possessed, and he went to Jesus.
And Jesus said, all things are possible if you believe it. He said, well, I believe, lord, but help unbelief.
You know, he still got his miracle.
I think sometimes we get less from god when we try to pretend the phony faith that we don’t have, instead of just being honest with god because you know what I found out about Jesus?
He loves us enough that he will meet us where we’re at. He doesn’t make us come to him.
He will meet us where we’re at. Think about Thomas.
Well, I’m just not gonna believe.
If I don’t see the scars in your hands, in your side, I just cannot believe.
And what did Jesus do? He showed them to him.
He came, and he met Thomas where he was at.
And he said, now, more blessed are those who believe and have not seen, but you needed to see So I’ve shown you.
And you know what? Thomas went on to become a great evangelist in the nation of India.
So just because you don’t have 100 percent perfect faith, that doesn’t mean that god won’t use you, and it doesn’t mean that he won’t meet you where you’re at because I’ll tell you what happens.
The more experience that we have with god, the stronger our faith gets.
It’s much harder for a baby believer.
To get through real difficult times than it is for somebody who has had a lot of experience with god because you’ve seen god work time and time and time and time again.
And that’s why even like the psalmist David, he, when he was going through rough times, he would purposely remember the other things that god had done that brought him through.
So I wanna make sure you’re with me.
Do you understand what I mean when I’m saying that we can live on the surface where all this stuff is going on?
Or we can go deeper, and we can say now, what is really in my heart?
Cause I’ll tell you the truth, all this word stuff that you get, you may not remember it in your brain, but it’s doing you a lot more good than what you think it is.
And it’s in there, and it’s it’s food for your spirit, and it’s keeping you stronger than you think that you are But if we’re gonna continue to just believe what our brain says and what we feel like all the time and all the lies of Satan, then we’re just gonna give up and quit.
I had a rough situation, something going on the last couple of weeks, and here I’m getting ready to come and teach on trust and god.
And I felt like I didn’t have a symbol full of faith.
I kinda felt like, well, that’s gonna be really good for me to get up and try to tell everybody else to trust god all the time when I feel like I’m gonna fall apart over this simple thing that I’m going through.
And you know what? God revealed to me later that he let me go through that on purpose because he didn’t want me to get up here and just act like, well, it’s just simple to have faith and trust god.
No matter what, just believe god.
He he wants I want you to know that I know what it’s like.
I know what you’re going through if you’ve got serious problems in your life, and we’re telling you in church all the time, we’ll trust go.
It’s much easier for us to stand up here and tell you to do it than it is for you to do it when your faith is being tested.
But our faith will always be tested from time to time. How many of you found that out?
Your faith is always gonna be tested. From time to time.
I love that you said that. I I love so much that you can stand on a platform
Yeah. Yeah.
As a preacher of the word of god and say, I had a thimble full of faith because you were going through a hard time and and you’re just being transparent and being real.
So being able to tell people, you know, we we all face this sometimes.
Was that hard for you to do, or did how did how did that go?
Well, I don’t really have too much trouble.
I know. I knew when I asked, but
I mean, I think it’s a gift from god, but I really don’t have any trouble letting people into my life.
I I think that we have to be real with people.
We have to I don’t have to pretend like I have perfect faith and
but a lot of Christians do. Yeah.
A lot of a lot of them do. And that’s I don’t I don’t think god likes it either.
I think he wants us to be to be real.
I remember being your daughter’s age going into college and thinking I have to explore all the options because I am a college student, and that’s what you do.
So I remember thinking through things
lost for, like per life amp up.
I’ll take a turn. I’ll make you feel better.
So I remember questioning things just because that’s what you’re supposed to do And as I started questioning things, then I really started questioning things and thinking, what what what are these things that I believed in that they’re not lining with what I’m seeing.
And then I don’t I don’t feel like I had anybody say it. That’s okay.
It’s okay for you to ask those questions. Just bring them to god and let him help you navigate it.
And that was such a journey to learn. It was okay that I had those things.
It didn’t make me less than I didn’t lose my faith because I asked, I don’t understand this, god, these don’t reconcile in my brain.
But to learn that it’s okay was a game changer in my relationship with God.
I think that because I’m I’m similar only. It wasn’t just when I was in college.
It’s like all the time. I’m just a questioner and and I think god’s made me that way.
And it’s drawn me closer to him along the way, but it’s also given me those times
Yeah.
Where I didn’t have as much faith. And so those scriptures with with Thomas.
The that Jesus would do that for him. Mhmm. Just say here, come come and look.
Yeah. Yeah.
Come in here. Close to me where you can see and look. Yeah.
Those those were the things that have kept me steady through those questions because it was just like god’s saying, You know, I I get it, and that’s why I’ve prepared a way for people like you too.
Yeah. Right. Hello. So, yeah, there are so so many of us.
And and other people, I love that that steadfast, simple faith.
I respect that and people so much, but everyone is different.
And what I love is that god has a path for all of us.
Totally. And I think that, you know, the younger generation, I mean, people I ask you questions.
And I think we have to uh, my faith, it’s not even so much anymore in how much I know My confidence is in who god is.
So even then with my kids, it’s like, you know what? Go and check it out because god is good.
And if you are sincere, um, in in your quest and having your questions answered, then you then god will reveal it to you in a way that is right.
I think some of what we’re seeing in society and and perhaps, uh, particularly the the millennial generation.
You know, there’s a a lot of that generation that was initially told just take everything at face value.
And, you know, we’re gonna teach you a whole bunch of stuff and this is it.
And what happened was some of the stuff that was taught was not really Jesus and the Bible.
It was more Christian culture or, you know, like, or purity culture or the or someone’s opinion of maybe how marriage and family, but but it wasn’t necessarily biblical.
And so all of a sudden, some of that stuff when it’s tested, well, it falls apart.
We’re living in a different time and a different age or maybe even the people that taught it to them, their lives fell apart.
And so now they’re like, hang on a minute.
Nothing was true because that person that told me this wasn’t even living it and I get all that.
You know,
you know, I really get why someone would think like that So again, then I’m going, if if you truly, uh, are seeking, it’s good to ask the question.
Okay. What did I believe that was just kind of Christian culture that where did I maybe put too much emphasis on a person and not on the word?
Because I still think if you truly go back to the word, and to Jesus, you’ll discover he actually never let you down.
It’s it’s it’s maybe the system or people let you down.
And so sometimes if the house of cards falls, there’s actually a good side to that because it’ll lead you to the real Jesus, I think.
I’m in that age group.
I
think I am a millennial. Yes. I am. That is me. Thank you. Let me count for a second.
And so I have seen that play out, and I grew up in Christian culture where I I I grew I grew up in a really great church, but I see looking back.
So many things that I thought were god. Yeah. We’re not god.
It was what people made the church out to be. Yeah.
And so having to relearn that, but it has done what you said.
It’s pushed me to Jesus and see those I let people get annoyed.
People let people get in the way of who god really is.
And I think that that’s a totally different shift in how you think about it.
Yeah.
How do you take that then?
Because there are so many people who have had exactly what you guys are talking about.
Been disappointed by people been disappointed by the church, been disappointed by what they think god should have done. Mhmm.
Where do you take those questions and and what do you encourage people to do with them?
Yeah. I I think that’s so important.
And right now on the earth, this this is a huge question, um, in the church.
And I think I’m I’m so grateful people are listening to this podcast because I want someone hearing this to go.
Number 1, it is okay to question. And, um, you know, and I’m gonna tell you 2 things.
One thing, of course, is to go to god. I mean, the Bible is full Psalms. I I say this.
I I love the Psalms because you’ve got David or whoever’s writing a Psalm.
David’s being chased by soul and all, you know, his enemies and they’re throwing spears at him and he’s hiding in caves and he he has this moment, you know, where he cries out in the sun and he gives you language for it.
It’s like, god, this is not fair. And why do they hate me? And I never did anything.
And, you know, why are my enemies bring and why are the unrighteous? Yeah.
And and I’m here in a cave and life sucks and
all the big questions.
All of it. And then by the way, I’d I’d love you, Lord, and I trust you, Lord.
Yeah. I have had seasons in my life.
My god actually gives us language in the Psalms to actually there’s a whole book called lamentations.
Um, you know, I think sometimes when you come from our side of the church, we we think, oh, it’s it’s bad to to question or doubt or or pour out your heart to god and say, it it really is disappointing to me that I prayed for that person and they didn’t get healed or it’s disappointing to me that that leader felt and I trusted them, or it’s so disappointing to me that I I felt that, you know, if I I sort of did everything, purity culture told me that my marriage be perfect and now my spouse has had an affair and walked out.
I mean, what I wanna say to people is you don’t have to squash that down and pretend it didn’t happen and it’s not real and and listen to some legalistic pharisee that that would tell you that it’s sin to that’s just wrong.
And I think that has caused more people to walk out than anything else.
So you go to god, number 1, and you can vent as much as you want.
Like, it is not gonna freak god out. And he knows I’ve learned this in my own life.
He knows what’s in my heart anyway. So, really, I can say it.
Um, but also who you go to is very important in terms of people.
Um, because right now, if you want someone to wallow in that pit with you, you’re gonna find them.
There’s plenty of podcasts. There’s plenty of stuff out there where people are going to take you down that track and, um, be very careful that what starts as a legitimate question doesn’t open a door to the enemy to take you off track.
And I think we’re seeing a lot of that at the moment.
Yeah. Uh, you know, I always go back to the more experience you have with god.
Yeah.
The stronger your faith gets. Yep.
And I came to a point a few years ago, and this is a little bit different than what we’ve been talking about, but I think everybody will get here.
I came to a point where I just have decided I’m gonna believe.
And I don’t I don’t care if I don’t understand it.
I don’t care if I don’t feel it.
You know, like, I I’ve been in a season right now in my life where it’s been a long time since I have, like, heard something really special or specific from god or had what I would call a visitation from god, like, you know, like, real feeling god.
I know a lot of people call that a dry season.
I don’t I don’t I don’t call it that, but god does sometimes hide himself.
And anybody listening, I would just tell you, if you are gonna go by how you feel, as to whether or not you believe God you are gonna be out before you ever get started.
Yeah. Because you can’t you know, like, if I went by what I felt like, Sometimes I might say, well, you know, where are you?
Are you even here? But I go back to there’s something deep inside me Mhmm.
From the years of experience with god that I know that he’s here, and I know that he loves me.
And I trust him enough that if he’s being quiet right now, he must have a reason.
And when he wants to say something to me, he will. Yeah.
You know, and a lot of people go way too much on their feelings and, you know, somebody, somewhere along we were talking about this program, somebody said something about some people are saying, well, it does faith really worked because I trusted god for this, and it didn’t happen.
But the first thing that came up in me is real faith does not have a time limit on it.
You know, yeah, you just you can’t I mean, Abraham waited 20 years.
For the promise to come to pass.
Joseph was 13 years, long time in prison for something that he didn’t do.
If you talked about David, I did a devotional, I mean, I had a devotional, yeah, devotional on this all the Psalms.
And the thing that amazed me about Psalms the most was just how gut level honest David was with god about how he felt, but he always came back to, but I trust you.
Yeah. But I trust you. This is how I feel. And I think that’s fine.
This is how I feel. It’s kinda like venting to a friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, this is how I feel but I this is what I know.
Yeah. Yes. I I completely agree.
And I think with what you’re saying about experience with god, It it really has been me wrestling with god at different times
Mhmm.
That I’ve I’ve seen the evidence of who he
is Yes. Right.
Of what the Bible says is true of the character of god. Yeah. Learning that.
And and, you know, so many different times in my life that I’ve I’ve seen it.
I’ve seen the evidence and I so I know deep down.
So then when, you know, I I have those questions and I I’m not real happy the way something went right now, it it pulls me back into the arms of that loving father.
You don’t always love what your parents do.
Right.
But if that love is consistent and unconditional. It’s gonna wrap you right back up in a safe place.
Yeah.
And that’s where I always end up going again back to the arms of the one who loves me most.
It reminds me of Job. Yes. You know, we all know how we feel about Joe. Baron loves I do.
Talk about Joe. I should try and limit but it’s such a good,
you know, how good
it really is. Yeah.
But even with the friendship thing, even I was just reading it recently again, and this never set out to me till now is he talks to his friends about what’s happening first, and they give him terrible advice.
Right.
And they’re making him question. And I it’s just terrible, but when he goes to god with his doubt and his concern, god puts him in his place, but he does it in a loving way.
I mean, he’s telling him you don’t know. I know.
But I thought it’s so beautiful of a picture of Job tried to deal with it.
And then he eventually he goes to god and he gets great wisdom and I just saw such a great picture of of all of this.
Yeah.
I won’t say Job again today.
You can say Job anytime you want.
That’s
Gosh is so great in that one.
The great thing is you always bring it around to the good part of it.
It’s the bad part of Job that people don’t like to think about. Fearful,
but he probably doubted
his face down.
But I think at the end of the day, and I think you’re right, Joyce.
You’re just gonna I am there as well that you you have to believe at at the end of the day, the lynchpin of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
None of us were there. So 2000 years ago, a a Jewish man was dead and then rose again.
Our entire fate is predicated on that. So I’m like, you know what? That doesn’t make sense.
None of that does. Uh you can’t even believe that, but by faith, and that that that is the so I always come back.
Well, I don’t even understand in my natural brain the very foundation of my faith, but I’ve so experience the resurrected savior in my heart.
That is what has kept me going. Someone needs to hear that.
If you’re trying to work everything out, it was like Billy Graham when he started, there was 3 guys out of his college that were preachers and he actually was not number 1, like he was number 3 on the rotation, but the other 2 guys, uh, went down a path of deconstruction in their mind.
They they were preaching and big crowds were coming, but then they started to doubt the Bible and they couldn’t under the authority of scripture.
I mean, this is all documented.
There’s so many books about this and one guy in particular was like a far more prominent preacher and when they were young and starting.
And but he could not he he got in his head and intellectualism and, um, the Bible isn’t true.
You know, so many aspects of trying to deconstruct the Bible. Well, Eventually, he walked away from god.
And Billy Graham, uh, tells a story that he went out to the fields in North Carolina, wherever he was.
And, and just melt, and it was just him and god.
And he went for a really long walk, opened his bible, and put it on a rock, and was just weeping because he was so conflicted.
His friends had walked away. And then he just told the lord right there in the middle of the night, I am just going to believe this, and I’m not gonna even try to understand it I’m just gonna believe that what you’ve written is true whether I understand it or not and closed it, and that’s what he did and look what happened.
That’s kind of where I think every person you have to get there. Yeah.
I don’t know how many years ago it was when I got there, but I got there.
And, you know, like, if I wanted to go by circumstances, I have had a really Yeah. Rotin last year.
You know? Yeah. I mean, I had a surgery, got a blood clot, Did damage to my nerves and my leg fell and broke my other leg.
Was in a wheelchair for two and a half months. And then, you know, straight out of that.
My back never could hurt and had, you know, you had to have some other stuff done and then just had some personal issues come up and just it’s just been like one thing after another after another after another.
And, uh but if I look back, I actually still enjoyed the year. Yeah.
And I don’t know how, but it was okay. You know?
God gave me people to help me and to take care of me and I wrote some good books while I was in that wheelchair and, you know, you have to get like Paul.
I’ve learned how to be content, either I’m a based or a bounding, and I know maybe for people listening who are not at that place yet, they’re like, they’re still trying to very well.
How do you get there? And how how how when when, what, what, what, what, and sooner or later, you you will have to come to that point of just laying that Bible open and say, I I’m gonna believe it.
And you can you can tell god how you feel. You can tell him what you think.
You can tell him you think it’s unfair. I like this. But always end with. Yeah.
But I love you and I trust you.
Well, and if you’re at a crossroads like that because You had 2 choices to make.
Billy Graham had 2 choices to make.
It when we come to that point where we’re at a crossroads, If you look at the long term implications of those 2 decisions
Yes.
While where where one could possibly take you or where the other one could.
If if you choose to walk away from the promise that we have, even if you think it may or may not be true, isn’t it worth the risk to see if it’s true?
Yeah. Instead of to live without that hope, your entire life.
Yeah.
I mean, there’s there’s so many good reasons to say, I’m I’m gonna keep walking down this path.
And until I see, you know, God really working, and then you do grow to that point
you’re talking about. If I believe this my whole life, and life comes to an end and I was wrong.
I didn’t lose anything because it still made me Happier.
Yeah. Yeah.
But if you go your whole life and you don’t believe and you get you into your life and you’re wrong, You’re in big trouble.
Yeah. Totally.
And so it’s even it’s just smarter to believe Yeah. Than not to believe. I I
agree with you. I think I say that when people go, you know, you’re going too hard or, like, look, I’d rather get to the other side and at worst have Jesus say maybe you could have had a few more days off.
Then get to the other side and find out, uh, you really could have done something with your lives.
So yeah. Yeah. That’s so true.
I was just gonna say, or it’s a question for you guys.
What you said makes me think of this, do you think part of the reason we question our faith is because we’re focusing on the bad circumstances.
So, like, your your, for example, you went through really hard stuff. Sure. Yeah.
But do you think we get stuck focusing on how hard things are or how things don’t make sense.
We focus on the problems and what god hasn’t done instead of what he has done.
And any anyone of the 4 of us, god has done much more for us than he hasn’t done.
Mhmm. Yes. I mean, my goodness. I I was such a mess. Yeah.
When after being abused and abandoned and divorced, and, uh, it was such a horrible mess and so unhappy.
And so hard to get along with it. And I mean, e just how god has changed me.
Mhmm.
You know, it’s just amazing in itself. So, yes, I agree with you.
We think way too much about
Yeah.
You know, you haven’t done this, and you haven’t done that, and You know, you haven’t done this and you haven’t done that.
Mhmm. But he’s done so much more.
He has. There’s some hasn’t done.
There’s some social media comments we’ve gotten. I mean, there’s just I just pulled a few.
They say things like, um, so much of the church needs to share their burdens instead of always pretending to be impenetrable I’m in such a crisis of faith.
I’ve been really struggling with my faith this past month.
I’ve been going through a hard time and feeling like god doesn’t really care about me.
So just all these questions of people trying to figure things out.
And I I just wonder, like, what you’re saying, when you feel stuck like that and you don’t know how to get traction on your faith.
Like, we want I want to have the faith that you do, but I don’t have traction.
Is it just starting with? Like, what’s the first step you take?
Like, a flip of how you think about it?
You know, in 1st Corinthians 22, Paul said something that I think we missed the value of sometimes.
He said, I’m determined to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified.
And I think we want to understand everything.
Oh, we do.
I want to.
We we want to know everything. We want to know why this and why that and Mhmm.
You know, I had I When I finally got out of my father’s house, I mean, I I I came to a crossroads of, okay, god.
I prayed when I was little that you would deliver me from that abuse, and you didn’t.
Yep. So Why? Are you Mhmm. Are you real or not?
And god gave me some sort of an answer.
I don’t really have time to get into all of it, but it’s it’s like I could not not believe.
It’s like he didn’t get me out of it, but he did get me through it. Yes.
And now he’s used it in an absolutely unbelievable way to set millions of other people free who’ve been abused.
And if he would have just gotten me out of it, miraculously, you know, we always want the miracle.
But the miracle doesn’t really deepen your faith. It’s going through that deepens your faith.
And that’s really the only way you can help everybody else.
Chris, you you have a quote in your one of your books that goes along with us so well.
You say hope is the anchor to our souls.
When a link in our chain is weak, then the whole thing can get disconnected.
Yeah.
So when when there’s a a weak link in that chain and we face something that that is a a terrible thing in our life, you know, that is where it can crumble.
And so tell me what what you mean by that, and and how people avoid that from happening and keep that chain strong.
Yeah. It’s a big one because, you know, the fact is that hope ultimately is Jesus.
I mean, the reason isn’t going to be our hope.
And sometimes it doesn’t really matter how much you understand it.
I, like, you know, even I was sexually abused.
I I could try to rehearse and try to understand it till the cows come home.
But, um, I needed healing from it, which which only Jesus could do no matter how much I understood it.
One if you stick with the other.
Can you? No. And and and Jesus is that ultimate hope we have as an anchor for our soul, and he is firm and secure.
So All those other things, um, are linking us to the anchor.
Now the fact is if somewhere I put more trust in the links than I do the anchor, then this whole thing’s gonna unravel.
I mean, you know, we rescue the victims of human trafficking. There’s so much trauma. There’s so much pain.
Um, ultimately, the ultimate hope is Jesus faith is predicated on trust, not understanding.
So that’s why it’s trusting the lord with all your heart.
And so what the enemy tries to do is to undermine your trust in god so that you no longer trust that he’s good, that he does good, that he’ll come through for you so then he’s no longer your anchor.
And that’s kind of really a lot of what we’re seeing and a lot of um the links in the chains kind of breaking down is people trying to understand more than trust.
And that’s not that’s not gonna work.
And, also, you’ve gotta think, okay, what is it that I have got more trust in than Jesus.
So normally when you get to your crisis, so the guys that were on the road to emmaus, and Jesus is walking with them.
And they said, we had hoped He was the 1.
And normally, what is revealed, and I think in the last few years, when you didn’t quite get what you wanted.
Maybe that job didn’t that door didn’t open. That person left you. That leader fell. You had hoped.
And and I think what god has revealed to us is where a lot of our misplaced hopes were
Yeah.
That we had hopes in people or things Right. And not ultimately in the anchor Jesus.
So dare I go here. I know this it might be premature for you people.
But I think I talked to my own life as well, but everybody, I think if I look at the last few years, you go, wow, I had more idles in my life than I thought.
My whole and it’s idolatry. And I got disappointed with god because that person didn’t come through or that thing didn’t happen.
But actually then my hope was not in Jesus. My hope was in that thing.
And I expected to get from people what I could only get from god.
So in a sense, it was god’s mercy.
That I had to go through because it led me to my anchor. Jesus.
Yeah.
Yeah. I I know I’ve heard of situations or even heard people’s say, like, when a pastor fell. Right.
The person decided to no longer believe in god, well, they weren’t believing in god to start with.
They were believing in that person.
Yeah.
You know, people are gonna disappoint
And
that’s why we have to be very, very careful
Yep.
About, really, to tell you the truth, you almost have to get to the point where nothing much surprises you because the truth is you never know for sure what people are gonna do, but you do know what god is gonna do.
Yeah. Yeah. Because he’s always always faithful to his word.
He he’s I was thinking about our changing culture, and I’ve got something coming up where I’m gonna teach about bringing the generations together.
And I thought, you know, time changes, generations change, clothing styles change, everything changes, but god’s word never changes.
And so, you know, right now, the the the style is more casual.
You know, the yeah, society is more casual.
And but that can become a problem because then if morals become casual along with that, I mean, it’s fine if you wanna dress casual or have a more casual attitude, but if you’re we always have to our morality has to stick yeah, with the word of god.
And that’s where we get in trouble when we start letting our morals go with culture. Yeah. Rather than
Yeah.
Staying with where they should be.
Do you think that pride plays a big part in all of this too?
Because I think when we can’t find the answers that we’re satisfied with, if if we lean into faith or if we just trust, it it almost makes us feel like we’re weak.
Yeah. Like like, I I need to do this in myself, and it’s gonna be weakness if I say, I just believe it because I believe it.
Well, I think it yes. At it’s the root of most of these things because at the end of the day, I’m saying I know better than god.
Right.
And, um, and that’s a dangerous place to be. Yeah.
And it all comes back, you know, Joyce and I were talking yesterday over lunch at a lack of fear of the lord.
So I’m not saying, you know, I when I wrote, how did I get here?
I mean, I wanted to be very open with people and say it during that season of it was more an We have to be careful not to confuse this.
You know, I had a whole lot of stuff happen.
My mother died, um, Nick’s sister-in-law died, his brother-in-law died.
We had 4 deaths back and forth, and my sister-in-law died too.
So back to Australia, you know, you’re a lot of trips for funerals, one after the other, Um, we had a big challenge in the ministry.
I had a personal betrayal from a friend. It was like one of those perfect storms.
And I remember coming home, and Nick was watching a documentary on the navy seals, you know, like as he does and it was on um hell week.
Now I didn’t know what that was and and then so it’s this week where you go in whether you’re gonna be picked for the seals and they break you down emotionally, physically, mentally.
You all know your Americans, you know, I had to learn this, but but it’s intense.
I mean, it is the the deal is to try to make you ring the bell so that you tap out and you go.
And, um, I remember there was this one scene the guys were jumping out of the helicopter.
And I just started to cry, so Nick already’s like, what going on?
I’m like, okay, should I call the ambulance? Okay. So I and I’d go
Not everybody cries during in need
of your documents. And and me in particular, like, I’m not that emotive about.
But, I said, you know, I think that’s how I feel. And he said, what do you mean?
I said, it’s like because I’ve always said, we’re like the Navy SEALs, you know, I’m out there doing evangelism out there rescuing the victims of trafficking.
We’re frontline of what god’s doing.
I said, I feel like I’ve been dropped out of the helicopter and the lord’s given me an assignment and, you know, I’ve gotta swim to shore and I know I can do it in my natural strength.
I know I’ve got enough muscle built to do it.
I said, but for the first time, in my 30 years of following Jesus, I don’t know if I want to.
And it was that I mean, it was deeply, you know, uh, sobering in that moment for me.
And it’s kind of like, wow, where have I gotten to inside?
Like, I I had never I’ve had plenty of times with, I don’t know if I can, I don’t know if I but not, I actually know what this is gonna take,
and
I don’t know if I I actually really am up for it again?
I’ve just been, like, battered and bruised so much. It was
like thinking about ringing that bell?
Just ringing the bell. Yeah. And I I think in that moment, Like, the other side of that here, I’m like, I don’t even know how God got me through, but he did.
And my strength of going, I came so close to ringing the bill and didn’t ring the bill.
I’m just saying this to someone. Like, sometimes it’s not even that you’re doubting everything.
Could god have got me through it? Could he have sent less trouble my way? Yes.
Could I could he have stopped that person from betraying me? Like, yes. Um, would I have preferred it?
Yes. But at the end of the day, he didn’t.
And for some reason in his sovereignty, he thought I could handle it. And I was gonna grow through it?
Do I wanna go through it again? No. But am I stronger for it? Yes. Yeah.
I I don’t know how else to explain it.
So and I think that comes back to your thing about through, you know, um, yeah, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death or you, you know, I part of the season.
You walk through. He seems to be the god that delivers us through more than he delivers us from.
And when you think about it, everybody wants to mirror
Everyone wants to be delivered from something.
Yeah. Doesn’t. You know? Totally. But you would think that getting a miracle would bring you closer to god. Yeah.
But I’ve seen by experience in the lives of people who have gotten miracles, healing miracles, and things.
It doesn’t really bring them closer to god. Right. But the person who goes through
That’s what it is.
Comes out on the other side. Yeah. They end up much closer to god.
And I think many times we pray for those miracles and god is giving us a miracle, but it’s a miracle in our soul.
Yeah. And it comes the harder way.
Yep.
And, I know exactly what you’re talking about.
You know, I’ve been at a few times where it’s like, god gets ahold of you.
And even if you let go, he won’t let go
of you. That’s And I think we’re as we’re talking about, like, doubt and perhaps some pea, you know, people that have experienced deconstruction, my confidence is always that he won’t let go of you.
You know, he will never leave us not forsake because there’s no way you can run from god that he’s not gonna be there.
That ultimately for any parent listening to this worried about your kids right now.
That’s why I’m, like, keep praying because it does work and god is the hound of heaven and, you know, like, he will go after them and find them.
He’s found people in the crack houses, if need, but he’s found them where so my thing is you might think, you know, you can run from him, but he he’s he’s he’s got you.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. You know, too much reasoning can really get you confused. Oh, very much, sir.
And I was really big on reasoning. I mean, I had to understand it.
And I had to get beyond that. And I I go back to that thing.
I just feel like I need to say it again in First Corinthians to where Paul said I’m determined to know nothing.
I think Paul was very intelligent. Yes. He He obviously was very intelligent.
He wrote 2 thirds of the new testament. He was highly educated. Mhmm. And he was accustomed to knowing things.
And when you get in a relationship with god, faith is the evidence of things not seen.
Yes. It’s it’s the substance of things that you you don’t feel, and you you you have you take it by faith.
And Yeah. Somewhere along the line, you I think Paul had to get to what we’re talking about today.
And I don’t know how long he was born again before he said that.
Could have been a while, but He finally said, I’m just not gonna try to figure it out.
No. And he he had to be I I I don’t know how long, but it has to be at least 15 years because then he went into the Arabian desert for 13 years be before it even wrote any of the letters, but I’m thinking when you just said 1st Corinthians, yep, um 2nd Corinthians.
Yep. I’m thinking, remember in 1st Corinthians, I think chapter 1 and 2 where he says, um, not when you were called, not many of you were wise, not many of you were intelligent, not many of you and then he talks about the world’s wisdom versus god’s wisdom.
And I I have been in chapters 1 and 2 a lot over this last year because so many people uh, either checking out of their faith because they think, well, it’s just too simplistic.
It doesn’t answer all the complex issues of the world. And if god was so loving.
He would be more inclusive and why is there just so many, you know, the Bible has got so many fundamental flaws.
But I really love that Paul’s like, listen, this this thing is foolishness.
And this is again where we have to end up coming back to. The foolishness of preaching. That’s it.
And he talks about that the crosses foolishness to those that are perishing and that, um, you know, in preaching, at the end of the day, this thing is contrary to man’s wisdoms.
It doesn’t make sense. I can’t explain it. You you can’t explain faith.
Yeah.
And you asked before Ginger if it was pride, and I think perfectly okay to ask god any question.
He can handle your questions, but to have to know. In order to believe is pride. Yeah.
Yeah.
I’m just thinking, could you imagine Noah if he had to know, like, when god said build an arc, he’s like, what’s an arc?
I don’t know, but like, rain’s coming. What’s rain?
Yeah. Right.
I mean, it’s like so how could you reason that? What was an arc? What’s rain?
You know, Moses is standing in front of a red sea with the Egyptian army behind him and, you know, a million complaining Israelites, and he’s he’s like, what are we gonna do?
I don’t know. I’ve gotta stick. Like, I’m just thinking, like, it’s all foolish, David, a little slingshot.
A few you
know, when god told Abraham to leave everything you know and go to a place.
I’ll show you after you start going.
What does that do? Like, I mean, you just we could go story after story and you go that actually faith is foolish.
Everyone looked like a fool in their generation.
And so in our world of reason, I think what we’ve confused things I think we’ve confused god with Siri or or Siri or chat GPT because we just like, uh, hey, Siri.
Play this. Hey, Siri. Tell me what this is. Chat GPT. Could you so we signed I don’t
even know what that one is. So okay. Well, that’s AI.
AA. Artificial intelligence. So it’s like, you know, so take Siri on another level. Alexa play this.
That’s how we treat god. Like, yeah. Yeah. Tell me, oh god’s not gonna tell me.
That’s a great example.
If you think
about this, how often we go, Siri, how do I feel? You could try this on your phone.
Siri, how do I feel about, and Siri will tell me. How I feel. See I can’t tell.
That is so funny.
Sorry. I can’t help you with that. You cannot
even make this stuff up, but this is how we’re raising a generation to true god. Exactly.
Like like like, god, And if god doesn’t come through and see, we don’t we have things that are now verbs, like, so we we we Uber to play.
Now Uber didn’t even exist as a word, but now we we actually it’s a verb. We Uber places.
We we don’t have just Amazon or Amazon Prime. We have Amazon now.
I want it coming today, and we’re expect from God. Hey, Siri. Tell me. Um, Amazon now.
I want my Uber, download this app.
I wanna binge watch my Netflix series So I’ve got if god’s not gonna answer me now, I’m gonna binge watch.
And I’m thinking we have
you’re absolutely right. We’ve turned we’ve turned all that into. We expect god to behave the same way.
That’s right. As artificial intelligence and the issue is god’s not AI. He’s the I’m turning Syria off.
I’m turning Syria off. But there’s
no more answers.
I don’t think this is what comes down to the fear of the law.
This is actually what the fear of the lord really is. God’s not artificial intelligence.
God is the supreme intelligence, and he is the supreme creator.
And this is why, I mean, I know danger all that’s gonna do, but I also think god’s gonna use it to bring people back to him to go, are you kidding me?
God is not like on demand. Yep. Yeah. And I think Oh, that’s so good.
We think he’s, like, on demand.
And so much about deconstruction and unbelief and doubt is because he’s not being like a sugar daddy coming through when I want him to come through.
That’s a that’s a very good example.
And that’s maybe one of the reasons why I don’t have as much trouble whether it is I don’t understand all the other stuff.
Well, thank you guys all so much.
I think there’s been so many great points brought up here and and hopefully just took a lot of pressure Yeah.
Off of some of our friends who are who are listening going through this your children are going through this, whoever it might be, that you can ask those questions, that there’s such love in god’s heart.
And He wants you to know truth. He’s not trying to hide himself from us.
And yet, we do need to understand that faith is not something that we can understand in in a earthly way.
So it does take experience with him, but there are answers for you.
When you seek god with your whole heart Yes. He promises that you will find him.
He is there for you. Now another really good place to ask your questions and to find out more about who god is is at our women’s conference.
Yes. Which is coming up in Tampa. This year. And Chris is gonna be one of our guests.
I’m so fired up. Whoo.
And Joyce will be Terry. Yes.
We’re we’re gonna allow her to speak again this year, but it’s it’s gonna be such a great time.
So we hope that you will register for our women’s conference.
Right now, you can go I turned off my iPad.
I don’t know.
Yeah. It was so funny.
I’m gonna say joycemeyer.org/wc24.
Okay. Well done.
We’ll try it.
We’ll see
if together, we make a theory.
So please register. Um, we would love to see you there, and it will not only be a great time, which it will be loads of fun.
But I think that you’re gonna experience this true god that we’re talking about Yeah.
As well, and that’s what really makes a difference. Chris, thank you as always. Love having you with us.
Family. Family.
Yeah. Yeah. And all of you too. We’re so appreciative to you.
Thanks for being with us, and we will see you time.
Bye, everyone.