Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Therapy and Theology with my friends, Proverbs, 31 ministries, Director of theological Research, Dr Joel Mule, and licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress.
Before we get into our conversation, I want to remind you about the listener guide we’re making available for each episode of season three.
We know these episodes can be a lot to digest.
So this is a resource my team created to help you practically apply what you’re learning, whether you’re listening on Therapy and Theology podcast or watching us on the Proverbs 31 ministries, youtube channel, we’ve linked the free listener guide for you in the show notes.
Now, in this installment of Therapy and Theology, we’re going to cover forgiveness.
Now, I know the minute that I used to hear the word forgiveness, I would cringe back up cross my arms because I immediately started thinking about the hardest thing I’ve ever walked through and there was a lot of resistance there, even though I was a Bible teacher and I knew God’s command was to forgive.
I felt like surely there has to be an exception.
Like surely we’re not supposed to forgive everything because at times forgiveness to me, it felt like an unfair gift that I was having to give to the person who hurt me the most.
And I think a lot of that was just my misunderstanding about what forgiveness is and what forgiveness is not.
So, first off, we’re gonna take a deep dive both from a theological standpoint and then also an experiential standpoint with the therapeutic side on forgiveness.
What is it? What is it not? And what does forgiveness mean when it’s mentioned in the Bible?
Um I wanna say at the very top of our show here, that one of the biggest misunderstandings I had was I thought forgiveness and reconciliation had to hold hands like in order to forgive, you had to reconcile.
So we’re gonna address that and find out that’s not actually true. Those two concepts stand alone.
We’re also gonna talk about another big concern I had and that was if I, I felt like if I forgive this person and the other person isn’t saying they’re sorry, isn’t owning what they did isn’t repenting, then I kind of felt like what’s the point?
You know, and so do I forgive someone who isn’t doing all that?
Because if I forgive them and they’re not repentant, doesn’t that mean I’m kind of saying that what they did was ok.
And I know it’s very much not OK.
So I had a lot of true concerns around the forgiveness process and then the biggest question I had and something that we covered in one of our sessions is how do I forgive?
Because I felt like it was this wrote process that I was like, ok, I’m gonna eke out these words of forgiveness.
But then five minutes later, the feelings of bitterness and anxiety were coming back on me and you really did a fantastic job from a therapeutic standpoint helping me understand what was going on and what to do about it.
So let’s first turn to you Joel forgiveness.
So I think first I want to look at like we always do Lisa and Jim of what is this word from a biblical theological standpoint.
And so I did a quick kind of word study on this and I found that the English word forgiveness has different Hebrew words and different Greek words.
But here’s what’s interesting of the Old Testament of the 57 instances that we have this, the weight of the usage of forgiveness is an indulgence towards something.
It’s actually talking about a heart inclination towards something. What is that that towards?
It’s a release uh in the New Testament, roughly 75 instances, the weight of the usage is to leave or to forgive, right?
So what does that tell us uh about about the Bible?
Well, one it tells us that forgiveness is super important.
It needs to be some that the human heart has a indulgence towards and the New Testament kind of flushes it out a little bit more.
Well, what is the indulgence towards? It’s to leave behind something? It’s to clear a debt in, in essence.
And at least I remember when you and I spent a lot of time researching and setting this topic.
Um, and, you know, I think you were looking for and I was also looking for, um, the escape, the escape route forgiveness.
Like there’s a lot of work in the Bible, right? Not to be, you know.
Um And unfortunately, after, I mean, you say 1000 hours of study, I say 2000 hours of study, the truth is probably somewhere in between.
Um there was no uh clause. That’s right. That’s right.
And so forgiveness seems to be and we’re gonna get some text.
I know you’ve got some verses that you wanna look at, but I I I would look at forgiveness as a requirement.
It is unconditional and before you start to panic, you’re like, Joe starts to feel unfair and you cross your arms just know that there’s hope on the other side and there’s some misunderstandings of what forgiveness is.
But we’ve got start here. Forgiveness is a requirement. It is a biblical command given to us.
Um It is the mark of extravagant forgiveness present in the life of the Christian that actually sets us apart from the rest of the world and it gives us a reason and other people a reason to be drawn towards the goodness and grace of God.
But when we think about forgiveness, we need to understand it and it’s right.
Um It’s social and historical and linguistic context. Well, what is that?
There are two Greek words that are being used and then we’re gonna get into some of the verses that you have the release.
But um one is a and this is in Matthew 6 14 through 15 ami is a judicial declaration of a release.
It’s saying you’re innocent like I’m done, I’m, I’m, I’m no longer gonna hold this offense against you.
Notice this, it has everything to do with me and much less conditioned on them.
This is a personal act that I am making, right? Uh And then the second word is this word charisma.
Now, in the previous episode, we joked about the fact that sometimes I mix metaphors.
It is a thing in my life. I will correct you if, if we don’t understand we’ll correct.
Yeah, you’ll correct me. That’s, it’s a sign of humility in my life and I love it.
Um But I also want to point out that there was another great biblical theologian and scholar that use mixed metaphors all the time.
His name is the Apostle Paul.
So I feel like I’m in good company, but Paul has this tendency of taking two different words and combining them together to get to something that is super important.
And he does this in Gaussian 3 13 and in Ephesians four, which I think at least you’re going to get into the Ephesians passage.
But this Greek word is charisma. Charisma is built out of the Greek word chorus, which means grace.
So it’s a type of forgive that is grace laced. What is grace? Grace is unmerited favor.
Again, notice this, it’s a gift that I give that I am acting and participating in that does not require anything from the other person.
And so forgiveness needs to be framed as something that I participate in that I’m doing that.
I’m releasing an offense that somebody else has done onto me.
And it’s not conditioned upon whether they’ve repented or they’ve done this or done that or haven’t done this.
It actually has to do with a lot more of my personal peace and my personal sanity so that I can move on.
And this is the framework of where forgiveness is a biblical command. It’s an imperative.
Um And it’s not something that we, we can really bypass so good Joel.
I really, I think in the years where I’ve done my own forgiveness work and like I said, there’s a lot of resistance to it.
But what I started to understand a couple of profound things, one forgiveness is a whole lot less about the other person and a whole lot more about keeping my heart swept clean.
I, I honestly feel like forgiveness is part of God’s prescription for healing and the other thing that I kept thinking and kind of struggling with is I just don’t want to forgive.
You know, I just, you know, somehow bitterness and unforgiveness almost to me felt like a protective wall that I could hold up against this other person.
And that if I could just hold on to my bitterness, that I would never let them get close enough again to hurt me the way that they hurt me.
And obviously, there are better ways to create emotional and physical distance with someone such as boundaries, right, or operations.
But bitterness wasn’t really protecting me.
It was actually eating away inside of me and it was turning the best of who I am into something I was never meant to be, you know, bitterness isn’t just a feeling, it wants to be a consuming feeling.
It, you know, there’s not just like a little bit of bitterness because bitterness is like acid, it creeps out and every everything it touches it corrupts.
And so I had to start understanding that, ok God’s forgiveness, it is a way that my heart can be swept clean.
And so that the best of me can reemerge is God’s way of healing.
But also I had to realize that God’s forgiveness. It doesn’t start with me. It starts with God.
Forgiveness comes from God. And as God’s forgiveness flows to me, I simply must cooperate with it and let it flow through me.
And so forgiveness is a lot less about my determination.
It’s really about my cooperation with God’s way of healing my heart.
Now, here’s the hard thing if God’s forgiveness flows to me and it does and I do not let it flow through me.
The heavy weight of forgiveness is almost too much for me to bear.
So let me read a couple of verses you mentioned from Ephesians chapter four and it starts, let’s start in verse 26 be angry and do not sin.
Do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil.
Now, here’s what’s interesting as I was reading through scripture, I started to see a pattern emerge throughout scripture.
And this verse is pointing to that pattern so many times where I see bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness, those harsh emotions, anger, um that it, it God tells us, you know, we can feel angry but we don’t have to sin in our anger.
So many times when I hear these really hard words, the devil is mentioned as being right there.
I mean, it starts even in Genesis chapter four, you know, it’s like where God, that’s right, the first human conflict that ended in a murder.
And before the murder happened, God came and said, let me instruct you right? There is a way out.
Remember that sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you to devour you, right?
And of course, this is the story of Kane and, and Kane doesn’t listen and, you know, he still proceeds on and then of course his brother passes away and is murdered.
I know I always want to kind of soften it a little bit. But no, it was murder. Ok.
That’s the, you’re just a wonderful, that’s like, well, you know, this is why the balance is good here.
Words do frame our reality. Let’s be honest about that. Yes, this is true.
But I started to see this pattern emerge where there’s unforgiveness.
The it’s almost like putting blood in the water and the sharks are drawn to it.
The enemy is drawn to the smell of unforgiveness.
Devouring brings up that language of a lion that is ready to devour and consume prey.
So that shark analogy metaphor is it’s perfect. That’s exactly what’s happening in the biblical text as well. Yeah.
So let’s read it again. It says verse 26 of Ephesians four, be angry and do not sin.
Do not let the sun go down on your anger.
In other words, don’t lay in your bed and become consumed with bitterness and anger and resentment and then right behind that and give no opportunity to the devil.
Then let’s go on down to verse 29 let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth, but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear.
So you see, I’m starting to see, it’s like we lay in our bed and if, if the sun is going down and we don’t allow the Lord to sweep our heart clean, we’re just gonna lay in all of these harsh feelings.
It is going to affect us because what we focus on what saturates us most deeply, what we think about out and lay in our bed and consume that is going to come out.
And so it’s no surprise to me that the very next part is, you know, just like it’s gonna come out in our words, you know, because bitter just doesn’t sit still.
It comes out and often comes out sideways.
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth but only such as good for building up.
And then it goes on in verse 30 and do not greet the Holy Spirit of God, which can we just say?
I mean, just let that sit on you like if we don’t do this, we are grieving the spirit of God.
I mean, that’s a deep statement.
So it’s not just causing chaos in our life and for those around us, but it is creating sorrow in the deep sorrow in the heart of God by whom you received for the day of redemption.
And then here’s what it’s instructing us to do.
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice, be kind to one another, tenderhearted forgiving one another, not in your own strength, but as God in Christ forgave you indeed, as God’s forgiveness flows to us, we must cooperate it, co cooperate with it and let it flow through us.
So we wanna turn over to you Jim in just a minute.
But biblically speaking, help us understand this notion that forgiveness and reconciliation don’t always have to hold hands because this is a major point where I was getting tripped up.
I think that’s a really great question, Lisa.
And it’s one that is often again, we’ve talked before about conflating something that is unique and exclusive to God and expecting that characteristic to also be unique and exclusive to humanity.
And so with God and notice what uh Matthew six says in Ephesians four says, and even Gaussian 3 13, I’m gonna read a couple of these clauses 3 13 bearing with one another.
And if one has a complaint against another forgiving each other as so that the forgiveness is conditioned as the Lord has forgiven you, so you must also forgive and you already read the Ephesians four.
But Matthew 6 14, it says, if you forgive others, their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, their trespasses, this is scary. Neither will your father forgive your trespasses?
I mean, this is pointing to how important this is now, what is this forgiveness that God has given to humanity?
It’s judicial on the cross, Jesus dies on the cross and he offers the free gift of forgiveness to everyone, right?
And because God is God and Jesus is perfect.
He then gives the um the ability, the possibility of reconciliation for all who would.
And there is a condition actually here for all those that would repent of their sin, turn from their wickedness and turn towards Jesus as the messiah.
Right. Now, here’s the thing that is always possible with Jesus in terms of relational or Yahweh in relational um relationship because that’s unique to God.
That’s part of his character and attributes. When it comes to human, to human relationships, the forgiveness is a command.
So the command to forgive is a requirement in, in the Bible.
So here’s the way that I would summarize this while we are required to forgive others, we have a responsibility to pursue reconciliation if possible at this point.
Everybody’s like Joel, I need you to prove this from the Bible, not just because you said it.
I’m happy to do. So let’s take a look at Romans 12, 14 through 17. Notice the language.
This is where it says bless those who persecute you, bless them, do not curse them, rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who we have not noticed this live in harmony with one another.
And then, and then how do you live in harmony?
You don’t be haughty but associate with the lowly or the humble, never be wise in your own sight, repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
What is the inverse of this?
This is kind of AAA biblical harmon of how we need to read the scriptures.
It says live in harmony, which means that to live in harmony. There’s a consequence for living in disharmony.
How do you live in disharmony?
The presence of Haines, the presence of um of pride looking at yourself as much higher than everybody else, repaying evil for evil.
Um Not doing what’s honorable. And so this is all actions that create disharmony.
Um And then the, the probably lynchpin versus Romans 12, 18 through 19.
And this is what Paul says in a society and in a Roman culture that um was divisive at at, I mean, it was tough that says if possible so far as it depends on you live peaceably with own.
So it’s really important. How does Paul phrase this?
He starts with if possible, it’s a conditional clause which implies that sometimes it’s not possible. OK.
So this is a little, little bit of, of Bible uh exes here, if possible means that the possibility is that it’s not possible, but there’s an imperative.
What’s the imperative so far as it depends on you at this point, we could be really frustrated because it’s like, why does it always mean?
Right? Why am I the one who’s always got to forgive.
Why am I the one who always has to go first? Why?
You know, and I would look at you and, and we are like in, in conversation and just say, but imagine if Paul wrote it different.
What if he said if possible so far as it depends on them? Mm. That’s devastating.
It is devastating because you cannot ultimately control another person.
Change another person, get another person to cooperate in any way, shape or form.
I mean, you’re a handcuff that is just brutal. And so this is actually God’s kindness.
So again, if possible, which means sometimes it’s not possible so far as it depends on you, which means I have a personal responsibility to do all within my means in order to and what is the goal?
What is the, tell us the the outcome to live peaceably to have, how, how do we put all this together?
And this is where the reconciliation is only a possibility.
It’s in mind sometimes it’s possible and I’ve done everything within my means and the other person is repented.
Uh There’s harmony restored, there is timeless, believable behavior with Jim talks about a lot.
And in those situations, peace can be restored, but sometimes it’s not possible and you have done everything that you possibly can in order to within your means to create an environment of peace.
But peace is not present. What do you do in that situation?
You’re still responsible for peace, peace is not conditioned. So how do you establish peace here?
Sometimes it means that you have to remove yourself from the situation so that peace can be established.
And that means that there are, there are situations where forgiveness is always required, but reconciliation is only present with a possibility.
So here’s how I would say it. And this is what Jesus says. Forgiveness is unlimited and unconditional.
This is Matthew 18, but reconciliation is limited and conditional based on repentance, a willingness to be disciple and humility in the restoration process.
And if you want a great example of that, look at Luke 19 8, which is the story of Zus.
That’s wonderful. Well, thank you for that clarification because it’s really important.
And obviously, we are called to demonstrate self control because that is evidence of God’s spirit in us.
So while we’re not called to control another person, we are called to remain self controlled.
And just like Joel said, you know, we can do everything as it depends on us so far as it is within our control, which just means me.
And here’s where it really hit home to me.
I remember one time I sat down and I wrote a list. This is the best of who Lisa is.
I’m kind, I’m generous, I’m long suffering.
This is the worst of who Lisa is and the worst of who I am is actually the opposite of those things.
It’s like I can be unkind I can be impatient. I can be skeptical of people.
I’m withdrawn and here’s what determines whether I have the best of me, front and center or the, the not so great me, front and center.
It’s self control. It is recognizing that I must continuously choose to put myself in a situation where through appropriate boundaries and through this beautiful gift of forgiveness that I am able to walk forward, even if the other person doesn’t change.
What brings up the worst in me is when I keep trying, keep trying to get this other person to change thinking.
If only they will do this, then I will do this, then I can have peace, but that’s not true.
I can remain self controlled. And part of that self control is removing my, my myself from situations that boundaries are being violated.
Um The other person is continuing bad behavior and, and I am ratchet, getting ratcheted up in my frustration and my anger and I must be in that moment, choose the, I must choose self control.
You know, I used to feel so frustrated, I think because I kept waiting for this other person to say they were sorry.
And so in other words, I I my ability to heal and move forward was attached to the decisions of the person who hurt me.
The repentance are not right. And so it finally, it finally kind of sunk in my head.
I was allowing the person who hurt me to hurt me twice. They hurt me originally.
And now I’m allowing them to hijack my ability to heal and move forward.
So I had to detach my ability to forgive my ability to heal from this other person.
I had to say no matter what their choices are, no matter if they never say they’re sorry, no matter if they just don’t even come back and have a conversation with me.
So therefore, I can’t even verbally tell them that I forgive, I can walk this out with God and with God, I can choose to forgive, not necessarily for their sake, but for my sake.
So that it, it became my choice, my healing and that was a beautiful step of reclaiming my future and it was important for me.
So forgiveness doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a horrible, awful gift that the one who was hurt has to now give to quote, make it ok.
In the situation, forgiveness for me was an opportunity for God to help me sweep my heart clean of things that were just not in keeping with my true nature.
It’s not in my true nature to be bitter and full of revenge and anger.
And it is in keeping with my nature to be kind and tenderhearted.
Therefore, forgiveness allowed a pathway back to the best of me. Now, it’s not a tidy process.
It is not that hard, you know, it’s like one thing to say, ok, ok, ok.
We forgive, like we understand forgiveness is biblical. And thank you Joel for that, the theological wisdom and insight.
Now I turn to Jim and I asked the question which I asked with tears rolling down my face.
How, how do I forgive? I had been a bible teacher for decades.
I’ve been a Christian for a really long time.
And honestly, I never had someone teach me practically how to forgive. I knew I should.
But how do I do it? And that was a profound lesson that you taught me from a therapeutic standpoint.
So do you want me to tell a story or do you want to tell a story?
I’d love to hear you tell it and I was there for it. Yeah.
So, and, and you can remember that almost shocking thing.
Sometimes a flinch of what you asked me to do what I’d love to hear your narrative again.
So I um I was in a session with Jim and he said, you know, do you want to heal?
And I said, yes, like, do you want to get better? Do you want to move forward?
That’s a Jesus question, right? Do you really want to be?
Well, a man at the pool of Bethesda woman at the well, thirst all I get.
So we were like, why would you ask such a dumb question? It’s like I never assumed that. Yeah.
And I’m like, of course I do.
And Jim said, well today is a good day for us to work on forgiveness.
And I was like, are you high? Like, seriously? Hi. I just told you that I wanted to heal.
I did not say I wanted to forgive and you helped me connect those two together.
And so I finally became convinced, ok, I, I, I’ll, I’ll trust the process just a little bit.
And so you said, well, let’s don’t start with forgiveness. Let’s start with the hurt.
That is, that’s happened to you. And you were very gracious.
And, and you handed me a stack of three by five cards and you said, just write out what’s happened, Lisa, try out each thing that has hurt you.
And so I thought that I can do.
So I started writing one thing on each card and I was laying them down on the floor and there was a lot of hurt inside of me a lot.
And so I laid down and before I knew it, it’s like the carpet was really filled with all of these cards.
And as I took a step back when I thought of the last thing, and I just put that last card down, I remember thinking, no wonder I feel so heavy inside.
No wonder. I feel so confused because this is a lot to sort out.
And so after that was probably a big deal, I know you, you both know this but to do that more experientially to write the cards out laying them that long kind of path in my, they weren’t just scattered.
They were in a path in my office for you to see them and go. Whoa.
That’s as a step to go.
There’s a lot here versus if you just narrated and told me, but to show me anything, you can tell me, you can show me that’s kind of the thought like, wow, look at that and you know, it was so profound as I was standing there looking at all of this hurt, written out on, on these cards and you were standing there with me, something very profound happened.
You looked at me and you said, Lisa, I believe you and I could cry right now thinking of that moment because what I really needed and I think what was really holding me back from forgiveness.
It wasn’t so much that I needed the other person to acknowledge what they’ve done to me.
I needed another human to look at the hurt and acknowledge with me what I’d been through.
Just another human to bear witness to this happened. And this was awful and I needed that moment.
And so when Jim said, he believed me, it was just, I can’t even describe what it did to me, but it was very profound.
And you know, in that moment, you also said, and Lisa, if no one else ever says, they’re sorry for what happened, I’ll say it to you and to hear another human say to me, I acknowledge that this is real.
You have been through this. It is awful. It should not have happened.
And if no one else ever dares to say they’re sorry, I will.
I am so sorry for this pain that you have walked through.
And you know, in this series, we’ve been talking about some tough stuff.
We’ve been talking about toxic people and the harm that can happen inside of a dynamic of dysfunction.
We’ve been talking about the devastations in a marriage that can end in the death of a marriage with divorce and your life, not looking the way that you thought it would hard things like adultery and abandonment and abuse and you know, this is heavy, heavy stuff and I wrestled a little bit.
Is this really the episode that we want to tuck in here?
Because, you know, we’ve talked about some of the most devastating things that can happen within a human relationship with another person.
And yet I know what forgiveness did to me and I know how powerful it was for my healing.
And so we don’t want to just know that we should heal.
We want to be equipped to heal and believe it or not, forgiveness really is crucial.
By the way back to Amy.
You may be going here next and you’ve taught this, you’ve spoken on it um that we didn’t just lay cards down of all the facts of Amy at least part of that to cancel the debt that we begin to say.
Well, what did each one of these things do to you? Fact and impact?
That’s where a lot of even emotional feelings and thoughts and, and connections can come up. Connecting dots go. Yeah.
As we said, 100 times that the same sun out there that hardens clay, softens butter and for you to realize.
Yeah, that, that’s what it did Listen two words to me, not to everybody else.
That’s where all that often that deeper connection could come up because you had those cards too. Yeah, absolutely.
And I’m so glad you brought that up.
Um Because when you experience a trauma, there’s two parts to the trauma. There’s the fact of what happened.
That was the moment that it happened. You know, these are the facts but then there’s the impact.
What did this cost mean? What did this do to me? So I’m so glad you brought that up.
Therefore, forgiveness has to be two parts, which is the track.
If you look at it as I’ve said a million times. My fit principle F I T facts.
This happened to me. I is impact. What did it do to me?
Spend some time there with someone helping you?
T is track and it’s chosen even if it feels unchosen like subconscious, the track is forgiveness is always a track.
We just went here in Romans, unforgiveness and bitterness is also a track that I choose.
Just think of a track like a train track. I choose to get on this track.
I will not forgive if you’re already blurring the lines between forgiveness and reconciliation or another one I remember is forget reconciliation, Jim.
If I forgive this person, then they got by with it and I go well, they got by with it the moment they did except for they are in God’s economy, reaping what they’re selling even if you don’t see it because sin always comes as a package deal.
There’s a little bit of pleasure and then the consequences are also part of that package.
And so the pleasure is almost holding hands with the pain of the consequences that whether we see it or not we did.
We know that that is the deal. Sin comes as a package deal.
So back to the fact and impact because trauma is fact and impact.
Forgiveness has to be around fact and impact.
And so you help me start with the forgiveness of the facts of what happened.
So we we went to the first card and um you said Lisa just have this marked moment where you verbalize, I forgive this person for this fact of what happened to me.
And I was like, yeah, but I don’t wanna fake it in front of God.
What if I just really like I don’t feel it.
And then you added this statement and it was so beautiful.
You handed me these little pieces of red felt and you said, just place a piece of red felt over it and say, and whatever my feelings will not yet allow for the blood of Jesus will cover it.
And that’s what I did card by card by card.
I said out of obedience to God, I am choosing to forgive this person for the fact of what happened.
And I would list it out and then I would take a piece of red felt and I’d put it over the card and whatever my feelings will not yet allow for the blood of Jesus would cover it.
And I did it for every single one of those cards.
And then when I got to the last card, I realized it was no longer all the hurt and pain staring back at me.
It was just this beautiful picture that Christ has paved away through the shedding of his blood, for this forgiveness to be possible for it to be possible for God’s forgiveness to flow to me so that it is possible for God’s forgiveness to flow through me.
Now, here’s where the impact happened because I said, OK, Jim, this is beautiful.
I’ve had this marked moment and I want to hold on to this.
But what happens when I get in my car and I’m triggered with some sort of pain.
A song comes on a picture pops up on my phone.
Uh One phone call happens and all of a sudden, I feel the bitterness returning back to me and the resentment and the anger.
When in reality, I just had this marked moment of forgiveness. Does this make me a forgiveness failure?
And that’s when you started to explain?
No, then that’s time that you’re becoming acquainted with the impact that this had on you.
And so it’s time for another marked moment of forgiveness. You’ve already forgiven for the facts.
but maybe you stop in that moment and acknowledge.
Yeah, I’m anxious and understandably so because there is a tremendous impact, their actions, they were a fact, but they also had a tremendous impact on me.
And so it’s another little bit of awareness of OK, I need a marked moment of forgiveness for the impact.
So in that moment, I can choose to say I am out of obedience to God, choosing to forgive this person for this anxiety that I’m feeling whatever and whatever my feelings will not yet allow for the blood of Jesus will surely cover it.
Now, here’s what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that healing was instantaneous in that moment.
The beautiful part of this process is you can forgive for the fact of what happened and be obedient to the scriptures and be obedient to what God taught and the impact letting it leak into your life over time.
And it will provide space for healing to be a process so that forgiveness isn’t forcing you in a moment to say that I’m healed, but you can be obedient to God to forgive the fact and allow for the space that healing requires to walk through the impact.
And often, um you know, back to a metaphor here, Joel.
But um I, I talk about um literally and physiologically phantom pain.
If someone’s had a foot cut off or toes cut off, people have had that.
And they would say it is as though, oh man, my toes are itching right now and but there are no toes there, but the body it is, is, is just as real.
And so adding to not yes, budding at all.
What you’ve said, adding two is often I’ve said to people resting on second Corinthians 10 5, taking every thought captive and making it obedient to Christ and his truth.
The Red Velvet Square uh Martin Luther said just because those thought birds fly over my head doesn’t mean they get to make a nest in my hair that I can say, you know what?
No, I did actually forgive I forgave fact and impact phantom pain. I’m having a memory or a song.
You talked about that. A song, a smell that all factory senses are the number one thing in trauma.
So that comes back on and I stop and, and I am known to talk out loud. I don’t care.
And I’ll say Jimbo, what’s the truth here buddy MI-5 seven for the millionth time and So I took counsel with myself and say, hey, women, you forgave that this is just phantom pain coming back an old memory or whatever.
What’s the truth? Sometimes I make that, you know, there’s a little bit of s still in the wound.
And yes, I said that and I need to go back and do some more forgiveness.
But often, you know, I found with me and with people I work with say, no, I, I canceled the debt.
I did forgive, forgive and I gave it to Jesus.
Surrender that so I want to come back just like I do little stretch here with communion.
I’m not truly drinking right now, the blood, the body. But I’m this dude remember it for me.
I’m remembering all that that was done to go. Yeah, I remember so I go, no, I’ve canceled the dead.
I’ve, I’ve done this and this is just a phantom pain.
It makes me think about as I listen to you guys, I don’t think I’ve ever framed it or did it this way.
But I, I, I keep coming back to this phrase that we use a lot Lisa the already but not yet.
And I think forgiveness actually should be framed in that understanding that there is an already but not yet, maybe a different way of saying it is that forgiveness should be understood as a now and ongoing now.
And so it is something now that I participate in. It’s the, the judicial reality of it.
But it’s an ongoing process that leaves space for when memories hit, when I’m re triggered that.
And even the, the exercise that what I can’t do now, the blood of Christ will, will cover well.
What if the sanctification process is that um you may need the blood of Christ to hear in this moment, but there’s gonna be a year down or 10 days or 25 years, whatever it might take where God is sanctifying you to the place where you can deal with that in that moment.
And so forgiveness should truly be understood as a um as a now and ongoing reality in the life of a Christian that’s growing towards maturity.
Yeah, that’s so good. I, I think it’s important for me to just speak straight to your heart too.
You know, this was, this was a process for me.
I mean, that day that I walked into Jim’s office and we worked on forgiveness.
I wrote about this in my forgiving, what you can’t forget book. I remember.
I mean, I looked rough, really rough because I felt rough. Life felt so heavy and impossible.
And you know, sometimes I think you see me now and it’s like I’ve got my hair washed and my makeup on and you know, I’m dressed in a Semiprofessional outfit and everything, but this is not what I looked like that moment that I walked into Jim’s office and I always love your honesty about that because you know, you’re Uber New York Times best selling author and, and all that, nobody can take it away from you but even the air freshener and all like that.
I remember seeing you there and I, I’m just saying this is an add on to you.
It is one of my favorite parts of counseling that someone would trust the process, maybe me some to come in and look very, very messy or whatever else and, and they will feel hopefully safe that Jim’s not going.
Wow. Or judging the people will come in off the stage and there are little stages that everybody is on the stage of your life.
We all have that and to come in and say, I, I’m very messy today and to be, for me to sit with a person trying to be as safe as I can in the presence of their mess.
That’s probably the favorite part of counseling for me is just to be the Jewish concept of sitting Shiva and being with that person as they.
And yes, it’s true. My hub, you know, I’ve said if you don’t do anything else and in friendships, you all can do this.
I hear you. I really do.
I understand you H U B or I’m trying to understand you and B I believe you and I’ve added the other b and I believe in you, you know, the idea of just I believe you we need a witness to our life.
Someone says, ok, scene of the crime. You’re not crazy up in there.
It’s a simple thing that everyone on this podcast, everyone watching or listening can practice, especially in their most intimate relationships to not jump quickly to giving advice.
Well, what I would do or even excuse me.
Uh, well, the Bible says it’s like be with that person, just be with them. That’s beautiful.
Yeah, the air freshener comment that he made is because I walked into his office and I had my hair up in a top knot which is code for.
I have gone way too long without washing my hair.
So I’m just stretching the dry shampoo situation and tying my hair up in a top knot.
Um And my face was blotchy, my heart was broken and as I walked into Jim’s office, I had this thought, I don’t, I can’t, I can’t remember the last time I put on deodorant and that’s unacceptable.
So I went into his bathroom and he had a can of peach air freshener underneath the sink.
And so I was like, well, I’m resourceful. So I use peach air freshener as deodorant.
So that’s, that’s that the nature of that. Thank you. Thank you.
That, that’s a really kind way to wrap up that terrible situation I was in.
But um yeah, there were so many counseling sessions where um you know, I all I could do for our time together was cry.
I remember I’ve curled up in the fetal position just thinking I, I cannot do this.
It was so painful and so hard.
So I feel like it’s important for us to, to speak very tenderly to you and just saying, we, we are not trying to over simplify this process.
It is hard, it is hurtful.
Um A lot of times the forgiveness process, like I said, it’s attached to some of the most devastating situations that a person can walk through.
And I will also say I am so grateful for forgiveness, even though my process started off with so much resistance and angst and even frustration with God that he would require forgiveness of me.
Here I sit, you know, several years past the final moments of that excruciatingly time in my life.
And um I do see the benefit of forgiveness. My heart feels light.
I am, I don’t know, I, I just feel lighter and, and grateful I do wanna read as we end the show today, I’ve got my phone back here.
Um But I do want to read a poem that I wrote because I think it would be an important things.
So as I pull this up, do you have any concluding thoughts that you wanna share, Joel?
Yeah, I mean, I think some people might be just wondering like, how is this livable? Is this livable?
How do we actually, how do we bring this question?
Um And I think one of the things I just want to just remind everybody, one of the child wrote this down.
One of the challenges that we have is that we keep trying to make real something that is unrealistic.
And, and what that means is um if we keep connecting forgiveness to reconciliation as synonymous, we’re trying to make something real that is actually unrealistic.
And so it’s actually a gift that God gives us by saying forgiveness is a command.
It’s legal and reconciliation is in view within the right possibility.
And when we can separate those most things, forgiveness can actually be a now and an ongoing reality.
But when it gets really difficult is when we try to make something real, that’s actually unrealistic and Jesus never invites us to do that.
Thank you. Ok. This is what I wrote. What does healing look like?
It looks like tears facing fears, crawling back in bed covers over my head.
It looks like time admitting, I’m not fine.
Not yet and no clue when wanting to give up but not giving up.
It looks like a fight staring up at midnight.
A cold bed, jumbled thoughts, emotions both numb and wild, deciding to live, refusing to give over to defeat.
It’s not a checklist or a clenched fist or an attempt to barely exist. No healing is living.
It’s rebellious acts of resilience. It’s chasing the sun, rediscovering fun.
It’s climbing back up, maybe clawing my way up and through and out refusing to entertain defeating doubt.
It’s through what I’m walking through. It’s counseling and pondering.
It’s being ok with quiet and then dancing it out so loudly, lifting my head proudly kneeling to God humbly and finally knowing I will be ok better than OK.
Maybe my best ever. Definitely my best ever.
Wow, that is so.